Should scrambling be noted on a listing?

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wa8pyr

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I think a lot of people missed a BIG fact here. The OP said that he was talking about rolled speech inversion. This in not encryption and can be unscrambled very easy. See this WIKI . -Edit For anyone who is wondering "scrambling" is different from Encryption in two major ways. The first is that it is not legal for anyone to Decrypt a signal for which they are not the intended recipient. This does not apply to a scrambled signal. The second is the way that the two systems work. A scrambled system/channel simply applies filters to the audio to make it hard to understand and in most cases it can be un done with a small effort. Encryption uses a crypto to encode digital audio data. A private key is stored in the transmitter and in the receiver that allows for the process to take place.
You're picking nits here. As far as RadioReference (and the law) is concerned, if the purpose is to hide the content of a transmission from unauthorized listeners, it's encryption. And as I noted earlier, we do not track encryption type, only the fact that it is there.
 

rittmanfireman

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If it opens and all you hear is the garbled audio
Unfortunately there is no good way currently to detect that a transmission is scrambled/inverted before the radio/scanner opens the audio. This is due to the fact that the only thing that is different is the sound.
 

buddrousa

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And if it is ENCRYPTED and you do not have written permission for the owner of the frequency then you are not authorized to receive it.
 

rittmanfireman

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And if it is ENCRYPTED and you do not have written permission for the owner of the frequency then you are not authorized to receive it.
You do NOT need permission to receive an "ENCRYPTED" signal. You DO need permission to decode it and disseminate the information. A scrambled signal is not considered "ENCRYPTED" by the FCC and you can descramble it at will. However you would still need permission to disseminate that information. Just like when listening to a POCSAG network. You can listen and decode however you cannot disseminate the information. Where we are failing to communicate is that people use the word scramble to describe encryption. When the fact is that they are vastly different. scrambling is the equivalent to DCS, TSQL, and Color Code for DMR.
 

Blackink

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Also, take for example an EMS agency we have here in IN. Indiana University Health - LifeLine. They run what we call "Partial Encryption". Some of the units run encryption at all times, others only in special circumstances. With Motorola at least, you have the following options for "secure" settings: Strapped Full Time (ADP or AES256), User Selectable, or Clear. With user selectable, you can have multiple variations in use. And Strapping can be set up in multiple ways also. And the settings can be changed on the fly with OTAP (Over The Air Programming), and the Encryption Keys can be changed on the fly with OTAR (Over The Air Re-Keying).
With all that gobbledegook milf just talked about, how can they keep it all "in-check", as in making it so all of the important EMS can actually hear what needs to be said while being on the correct channel/frequency?!?
Sounds like too many options could deter from a real emergency under the right circumstances, ie: someone flicked the wrong switch...
 

buddrousa

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My opinion and yours differ and I will leave it at that. Look up Scrambling and Satellite TV and you will see a total different statement.
 

n3obl

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With all that gobbledegook milf just talked about, how can they keep it all "in-check", as in making it so all of the important EMS can actually hear what needs to be said while being on the correct channel/frequency?!?
Sounds like too many options could deter from a real emergency under the right circumstances, ie: someone flicked the wrong switch...
Because an encrypted radio can be set to decode clear and encrypted at the same time so users operating legit radios wont notice any difference.
 

wa8pyr

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A scrambled signal is not considered "ENCRYPTED" by the FCC and you can descramble it at will. <snip> Where we are failing to communicate is that people use the word scramble to describe encryption. When the fact is that they are vastly different. scrambling is the equivalent to DCS, TSQL, and Color Code for DMR.
Scrambling is most definitely not equivalent to the various flavors of tone or digital squelch. Not sure where you got that little gem.

18USC§2511 is clear that interception of some communications readily available to the general public is OK. A communication that is scrambled/encrypted is not readily available to the general public.

The point you're missing is the intent of scrambling/encryption, which is to obscure the content of a communication so that it is not readily available to the general public.

You can certainly receive a scrambled/encrypted signal, but if you descramble/decrypt it, you're in violation of Federal and State law.
 
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milf

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Read deep, read slow, reread, and get a good lawyer... Here is the ECPA as latest amended... As you can read, intentionally intercepting is a violation of law. Once you know its encrypted in whatever format, technically unless your a party to that communications you must not monitor it in any form while the security methods are in place. This of course is grey in the area of in between and when its not secured. But I am not rich enough for a dream team of lawyers to go play in court with this, so take it as you will.

 

RRR

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I would hardly think listening to the garbled audio would be considered "intentionally intercepting".

Interesting read. So, under the "Divulging" part, how does a scanner feed provider get past that legally?
 

kayn1n32008

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Some TGs only allow encrypted transmissions. Other TGs allow either, leaving it up to the user of the prep. When I was a LEO I could enable or disable as needed.
Selectable/strapped encryption is determined by programming in the subscribers/consoles, not by talkgroup.
 

buddrousa

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Not what my programmer says.
TG1 Dispatch CLEAR
TG2 Dispatch 2 STRAPPED FULLTIME ENCRYPTION
Programmed in the radio not user changeable.
 

n3obl

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Not what my programmer says.
TG1 Dispatch CLEAR
TG2 Dispatch 2 STRAPPED FULLTIME ENCRYPTION
Programmed in the radio not user changeable.
People are referring to generic examples of how the radio can be programmed not your specific case.
 
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milf

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People are referring to generic examples of how the radio can be programmed not your specific case.
Exactly. How each system is set up is dependent on the system administration. The CPS, and RM software allows for pretty varied options.
 

wa8pyr

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Folks, this thread has gotten so off-track that the original topic has gotten lost in the noise, so I'm going to close it.
 
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