Simplex Advice Needed For Family To Communicate

[Lauri-CoyoteFrostbite]

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Ah !, no, not a scolding Joel... I just fear Val is getting overwhelmed by too many esoteric suggestions...



by -the-by---Below is the FCC rules that apply to LowFer'ing, as its commonly known--

15.217 Operation in the band 160–190
kHz.
(a) The total input power to the final
radio frequency stage (exclusive of fila-
ment or heater power) shall not exceed
one watt.
(b) The total length of the trans-
mission line, antenna, and ground lead
(if used) shall not exceed 15 meters.
(c) All emissions below 160 kHz or
above 190 kHz shall be attenuated at
least 20 dB below the level of the
unmodulated carrier. Determination of
compliance with the 20 dB attenuation
specification may be based on measure-
ments at the intentional radiator’s an-
tenna output terminal unless the in-
tentional radiator uses a permanently
attached antenna, in which case com-
pliance shall be demonstrated by meas-
uring the radiated emissions.


It is a band for serious nut cases...laffing... but not for any serious communicators
.
.

 

[KB4MSZ]

Below is the FCC rules that apply to LowFer'ing

Just give it some time and I'm sure Baofeng will have a non-FCC compliant HT for this.

 

[MUTNAV]

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Ah !, no, not a scolding Joel... I just fear Val is getting overwhelmed by too many esoteric suggestions...



by -the-by---Below is the FCC rules that apply to LowFer'ing, as its commonly known--

15.217 Operation in the band 160–190
kHz.
(a) The total input power to the final
radio frequency stage (exclusive of fila-
ment or heater power) shall not exceed
one watt.
(b) The total length of the trans-
mission line, antenna, and ground lead
(if used) shall not exceed 15 meters.
(c) All emissions below 160 kHz or
above 190 kHz shall be attenuated at
least 20 dB below the level of the
unmodulated carrier. Determination of
compliance with the 20 dB attenuation
specification may be based on measure-
ments at the intentional radiator’s an-
tenna output terminal unless the in-
tentional radiator uses a permanently
attached antenna, in which case com-
pliance shall be demonstrated by meas-
uring the radiated emissions.


It is a band for serious nut cases...laffing... but not for any serious communicators
.
.

Well, if he wanted to get involved (hobby wise) in eventually bouncing signals off of the moon, then tropo-scatter would be a great suggestion for reliable communications. To me a lot depends on what other interests exist. (wants to build lots of beam antennas, or likes building his own equipment, or maybe listening to NOAA weather stations from far away. etc...)

But, realistically the whole HF NVIS thing probably is the best, with 80 meters and 40 meters.

Thanks
Joel

 

[ValCurry]

Honestly, if the communications are important to the point of possibly using satellite phones for them, then I would seriously consider Garmin InReach devices. If you are thinking about routine comms every morning with the family before the morning commute to work, then ham is more reasonable.

Do you have any radio type hobbies that you could expand on, then your solution could incorporate them?

Thanks
Joel

I’m working on the radio hobbies now and since this thread started my daughter has started her study for Technician. She sees me working on the General and recently said she plans to do General as well. Her reading this thread has convinced her that we need HF. My son will follow as soon as he gets the time. It’s not an excuse. He is horribly overwhelmed with his job and is caretaking for 3 seniors. He tells me of us using a raspberry pi and a TNC (I think) for us to send messages when the internet won’t work for us. I’m kind of waiting on him for that one unless someone can suggest a forum topic for that.

 

[MUTNAV]

Thanks Lauri

I actually put a lot of thought into this kind of situation a long time ago... I made a list of every means of communications, it was something like 25 lines long, then went through and listed advantages and disadvantages of each (mode and frequency), HF was eliminated due to family not really being on board with it. I narrowed it down to tropo-scatter, (with the same equipment being usable for normal 2m simplex, and repeaters).

on the positive side HF stuff can be used for listening to interesting broadcasts also.

Then I moved and everything became moot

Thanks

Joel

 

[ValCurry]

Sharing my experience here - I regularly talk a little over 50 miles on 10m SSB with 60 watts using an inverted vee antenna hung about 16 feet up.

Sounds like we could do that. Thanks

 

[MUTNAV]

I’m working on the radio hobbies now and since this thread started my daughter has started her study for Technician. She sees me working on the General and recently said she plans to do General as well. Her reading this thread has convinced her that we need HF. My son will follow as soon as he gets the time. It’s not an excuse. He is horribly overwhelmed with his job and is caretaking for 3 seniors. He tells me of us using a raspberry pi and a TNC (I think) for us to send messages when the internet won’t work for us. I’m kind of waiting on him for that one unless someone can suggest a forum topic for that.

Your very lucky.... Best wishes on this, my Grandfather really liked listening to the radio, any travel wasn't affordable so the radio brought in distant destinations to him. I'm not suggesting getting the seniors involved in spinning the dial, but its an idea some older people might enjoy.

Thanks
Joel

 

[mmckenna]

I’m working on the radio hobbies now and since this thread started my daughter has started her study for Technician. She sees me working on the General and recently said she plans to do General as well. Her reading this thread has convinced her that we need HF. My son will follow as soon as he gets the time. It’s not an excuse. He is horribly overwhelmed with his job and is caretaking for 3 seniors. He tells me of us using a raspberry pi and a TNC (I think) for us to send messages when the internet won’t work for us. I’m kind of waiting on him for that one unless someone can suggest a forum topic for that.

HF will do what you want. NVIS is a great option.
I just received grant funding at work for 2 portable HF radio packages with NVIS oriented antennas for our Office of Emergency Services. This is specifically designed for "statewide" communications and not really aimed at interstate or worldwide communications (although configuration of the antenna system will allow that).

For our application, these HF radios are considered a backup to our satellite based systems. Satellite based system is considered a backup to commercial means of communications (wired/wireless phones, internet, etc).

Sounds like you and your family are really getting into the amateur radio hobby. Satellite is a great option if you need super reliable communications and you cannot get everyone to get their license. Since it sounds like that isn't a challenge, amateur radio will serve you well.

Only thing I can add to the great advice others have given you is that it is all about the antenna. Some new hams think that buying a high end radio is important. You really need to put time, effort and money into your antennas if you want reliable communications. HF antenna design is an entire field of study. You'll get a lot of great input from this site. Just make sure your antenna is designed to do what you need. A lot of ham radio HF antennas are designed for long distance communications, and that's not what you need. Pay close attention to the NVIS antennas. Those will get you the distance you need to communicate with your family.

 

[ValCurry]

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Majoco.... "HF radio has been the 'go-to' for reliable communications in the Australian 'outback..........'

ValCurry, this is the best advice you are going to get, (though I wouldn't discount the possibilities of using 10 metre's SSB to cover those 50 miles.) If you go the 10 metre route it will require that everyone pay attention to proper antenna's (ie: no "mickey mouse" stuff) --proper dipoles with some height and out in the clear, as a minimum-- expect to do some experimenting. The worlds above 25 MHz are considered VHF frequencies -at least by people like me, and they will behave more like 2 metre's than HF.... that is, they will be mostly line of sight path'd.

I am going to echo Majoco's (Martins's) HF recommendations, and tell you to shoot for SSB HF in the 80, 60, 40 metre range.
For my working career I traveled all over the world carrying portable 100 Watt HF radios. We could, quite literally, throw an antenna, called a terminated long wire, up into a tree, and with nothing to tune, be on the air in minutes--- talking easily 4-600 miles.
We used day time frequencies in the 8 MHz band-- very similar to 40 metre's, and at night would switch to 5 MHz- just like the ham 60 metre's band. On the rarer occasions we needed to talk longer distances I'd switch over to 11 or 16 MHz-- similar to 20 metre's'
----- It's so easy-peasy that the simplicity is almost embarrassing to relate.

I am not going to disparage all the well meaning suggestions you are, or will, receive. But please steer clear of the Sat 'phones, the VHF station that will require a beam, tower and amplifier, etc. etc....... These are way beyond what you want, or your experience level to do.
As far as going the LowFer** route ? Oh my !----No ! !

If everyone in your family is serious about this, get them all on the same page.. Bite the bullet, go over ("cram') the test questions for two weeks and then rush everyone out and take Tech/General tests.
I have a girl friend, who using Only these two internet sites went from someone who could barely change a light bulb to General Class in two weeks .

HamStudy.org: Technician class Ham Radio practice tests, ham radio flash cards, and ham radio question pool.

Prepare for your ham radio Technician class license with amateur radio flashcards, amateur radio practice tests, and explanations for ham radio questions

hamstudy.org

HamStudy.org: General class Ham Radio practice tests, ham radio flash cards, and ham radio question pool.

Prepare for your ham radio General class license with amateur radio flashcards, amateur radio practice tests, and explanations for ham radio questions

hamstudy.org

Lauri

View attachment 128827

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**FCC Part 15, 1 Watt transmitter, 50 foot antenna on 160-190 KHz..... its 'license free' but out of the question !!

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I think it’s good advice you have. I’ve even been using the HamStudy, Gordon West books, Ham Test Prep and video series. My daughter is also, but probably fewer videos. My son is smart with technology and will catch up really quick. Your experiences are encouraging. Thanks.

 

[ValCurry]

HF will do what you want. NVIS is a great option.
I just received grant funding at work for 2 portable HF radio packages with NVIS oriented antennas for our Office of Emergency Services. This is specifically designed for "statewide" communications and not really aimed at interstate or worldwide communications (although configuration of the antenna system will allow that).

For our application, these HF radios are considered a backup to our satellite based systems. Satellite based system is considered a backup to commercial means of communications (wired/wireless phones, internet, etc).

Sounds like you and your family are really getting into the amateur radio hobby. Satellite is a great option if you need super reliable communications and you cannot get everyone to get their license. Since it sounds like that isn't a challenge, amateur radio will serve you well.

Only thing I can add to the great advice others have given you is that it is all about the antenna. Some new hams think that buying a high end radio is important. You really need to put time, effort and money into your antennas if you want reliable communications. HF antenna design is an entire field of study. You'll get a lot of great input from this site. Just make sure your antenna is designed to do what you need. A lot of ham radio HF antennas are designed for long distance communications, and that's not what you need. Pay close attention to the NVIS antennas. Those will get you the distance you need to communicate with your family.

This sounds good too. I plan to research NVIS. So far I’m finding homemade versions of it. I believe the antenna is important as well. I have to pick a band first, or experiment with several. Thanks.

 

[majoco]

Here's a very good article on NVIS antennas (antennae?) .

Near Vertical Incident Skywave (NVIS) Antennas – Practical Antennas

practicalantennas.com

The beauty of NVIS is that you don't need humungous great towers and a spidersweb of wire all over the place. It's not mentioned in the article but a some I have seen and heard appear to be a broadband (within reason as you don't need to go over 10MHz/30metres as your higher frequency signal goes straight through the D layer) non-inverted "V" and doesn't appear to be much affected by a wire across the top of the "V". The most effective height seems to be about 20feet if you want 24 hour utilisation.

Of course you preferably want someone at the other end with a similar setup - it's no good if he has a "5 and 9 plus" from you but you can't hear him/her!

 

[ValCurry]

Here's a very good article on NVIS antennas (antennae?) .

Near Vertical Incident Skywave (NVIS) Antennas – Practical Antennas

practicalantennas.com

The beauty of NVIS is that you don't need humungous great towers and a spidersweb of wire all over the place. It's not mentioned in the article but a some I have seen and heard appear to be a broadband (within reason as you don't need to go over 10MHz/30metres as your higher frequency signal goes straight through the D layer) non-inverted "V" and doesn't appear to be much affected by a wire across the top of the "V". The most effective height seems to be about 20feet if you want 24 hour utilisation.

Of course you preferably want someone at the other end with a similar setup - it's no good if he has a "5 and 9 plus" from you but you can't hear him/her!

That article was intense. It will take me a while to figure it out. But I think it will be useful if I go with NVIS. I’ll look more into the non-inverted V. It may be an issue with the HOA. I would love to try it first at my house with some CQs. Thanks.

 

[ladn]

That article was intense. It will take me a while to figure it out. But I think it will be useful if I go with NVIS. I’ll look more into the non-inverted V. It may be an issue with the HOA. I would love to try it first at my house with some CQs.

HOA's (or a "committee of Karens") are a problem for antennas, but, know there are ways to disguise antennas so they are less noticeable. You have enough on your reading list now, so we can save this topic for the future.

 

[footage]

HF will do what you want. NVIS is a great option.
I just received grant funding at work for 2 portable HF radio packages with NVIS oriented antennas for our Office of Emergency Services. This is specifically designed for "statewide" communications and not really aimed at interstate or worldwide communications (although configuration of the antenna system will allow that).

For our application, these HF radios are considered a backup to our satellite based systems. Satellite based system is considered a backup to commercial means of communications (wired/wireless phones, internet, etc).

Sounds like you and your family are really getting into the amateur radio hobby. Satellite is a great option if you need super reliable communications and you cannot get everyone to get their license. Since it sounds like that isn't a challenge, amateur radio will serve you well.

Only thing I can add to the great advice others have given you is that it is all about the antenna. Some new hams think that buying a high end radio is important. You really need to put time, effort and money into your antennas if you want reliable communications. HF antenna design is an entire field of study. You'll get a lot of great input from this site. Just make sure your antenna is designed to do what you need. A lot of ham radio HF antennas are designed for long distance communications, and that's not what you need. Pay close attention to the NVIS antennas. Those will get you the distance you need to communicate with your family.

Would you be able to specify what transceivers and antennas are included in the packages that you got funded? Thanks.

 

[ValCurry]

Would you be able to specify what transceivers and antennas are included in the packages that you got funded? Thanks.

I don’t have any of that yet. I know it’s a big part of the puzzle. I’m at the stage where I’m gathering info to decide on what radios and antennas are feasible for the communication 40 miles away.

 

[mmckenna]

Would you be able to specify what transceivers and antennas are included in the packages that you got funded? Thanks.

I don't want to take this thread off course, however it's Codan Envoy radios and the Codan T2FD antenna package.

 

[k7ng]

I've used a BBTD antenna for NVIS as well as other modes. That antenna is not terribly efficient but in a HOA situation, note that it is quite variable in its shape so that it can be hidden or disguised. You must get the total amount of wire in there someplace and the general shape of the antenna more or less in a 'butterfly' pattern to function as intended. It wouldn't be my first choice in a location unrestricted by available space or HOA restrictions, but they do work after a fashion.

NVIS is simple in concept but requires a certain amount of understanding how radio waves propagate via the ionosphere to use it most effectively.

 

[cralt]

Only the daughter is in an HOA.

A dipole for 10 meters is only 16.5ish feet end to end. Maybe you could put up a "clothesline"? A fiberglass flagpole with a Antron99 hidden in it?

100 watts on 10m ssb should do 38 miles over flat terrain.

 

[ValCurry]

A dipole for 10 meters is only 16.5ish feet end to end. Maybe you could put up a "clothesline"? A fiberglass flagpole with a Antron99 hidden in it?

100 watts on 10m ssb should do 38 miles over flat terrain.

I’ll tell her about the flagpole. I think she‘s thinking of something to take in and out as needed. Something in her attic possibly.

 

[ladn]

I’ll tell her about the flagpole. I think she‘s thinking of something to take in and out as needed. Something in her attic possibly.

The attic or flagpole antenna is probably a better choice since it's always ready. Having to deploy and then take down an antenna gets old very quickly and makes it difficult to monitor a frequency.