Software?

[yorkpost]

With all the Digital systems coming out. Why can't the PC translate, with
software, all the new Digital systems, using any scanner, and be able to listen to the scanner on the PC speakers from the sound board?

I should be able to take an old Bearcat IV, crystal it up for 867.875 Mhz.
and using my PC listen to the new Digital MA-COM OpenSky (APCO25)
for my county. . . by just a software program, My PC, My Soundboard, and PC Speakers.

Analog to Digital to Audio. FSK

Some can't see the Forrest for the Trees! :roll:

 

[Jay911]

With all the Digital systems coming out. Why can't the PC translate, with
software, all the new Digital systems, using any scanner, and be able to listen to the scanner on the PC speakers from the sound board?

The hurdle as far as I know it is getting "the software" to do the decoding. Anyone happen to have a legal copy of the 'x' brand digital scheme?

 

[crayon]

With all the Digital systems coming out. Why can't the PC translate, with software, all the new Digital systems, using any scanner, and be able to listen to the scanner on the PC speakers from the sound board?

It would be nice to have a presto-changeo device that will allow scanning of these systems.

The problem with OpenSky is that it is TDMA. If you are unfamiliar with that format, visit this link:

http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10629

 

[N_Jay]

With all the Digital systems coming out. Why can't the PC translate, with
software, all the new Digital systems, using any scanner, and be able to listen to the scanner on the PC speakers from the sound board?

I should be able to take an old Bearcat IV, crystal it up for 867.875 Mhz.
and using my PC listen to the new Digital MA-COM OpenSky (APCO25)
for my county. . . by just a software program, My PC, My Soundboard, and PC Speakers.

Analog to Digital to Audio. FSK

Some can't see the Forrest for the Trees! :roll:

1) because the software does not exist.

2) because the FM demodulator in the scanner may not be able to demod the Digital signal.

3) because (if trunked) the system may require that the scanner be redirected to another channel

4) because some of the data (either control data, or voice data) may be encrypted.

5) because the Software does not exist

6) BECAUSE M/A-COM OPENSKY is NOT APCO-25

Some see the trees and the forest, but still don't realize they are LOST! :twisted:

 

[Glockorola]

APCO P25 Phase I transmit via FDMA (C4 variety), a modulation scheme that is not receivable by an analog FM receiver. Phase II P25 systems will use TDMA, also not recoverable by an analog FM receiver. When you get your EE degree, this will all make sense. In the meantime, buy a PRO-96 if you want to listen to P25, but don't go overboard on such gear. Soon, Public Safety Agencies running P25 systems will encrypt with DES-OFB, and/or AES. Then it's ba-bye scanners! Sigh...

 

[kikito]

Soon, Public Safety Agencies running P25 systems will encrypt with DES-OFB, and/or AES. Then it's ba-bye scanners! Sigh...

OK, I'll bite....

Out of the three post you've made since you joined yesterday, two make reference to the above subject of encryption.

If you're implying that every agency across the nation using P25 will, all of the sudden one day, switch to total encryption;


I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[loumaag]

APCO P25 Phase I transmit via FDMA (C4 variety), a modulation scheme that is not receivable by an analog FM receiver. Phase II P25 systems will use TDMA, also not recoverable by an analog FM receiver. When you get your EE degree, this will all make sense. In the meantime, buy a PRO-96 if you want to listen to P25, but don't go overboard on such gear. Soon, Public Safety Agencies running P25 systems will encrypt with DES-OFB, and/or AES. Then it's ba-bye scanners! Sigh...

Since a typical DES capable radio costs about $350 to $400 more than a non-DES/OFB capable one and then requires about $700 OTAR firmware/software per unit (unless of course you want to tie up radio shop techs reprogramming all the time) it seems that your prediction of full use of 100% DES-OFB and/or AES is pretty unlikely. You will understand all of this when you get your MBA. :lol:

 

[Pro-95]

You will understand all of this when you get your MBA. :lol:

Ok That just made me spit milk through my nose.

 

[Glockorola]

Louie Baby, soon, when your scanner just buzzes, you'll understand why your prediction is as worthless as your GED you worked so hard for.

BTW, I will expect you to read all of my posts, and we will require a complete review, by 6:00 PM each evening.

 

[loumaag]

Louie Baby, soon, when your scanner just buzzes, you'll understand why your prediction is as worthless as your GED you worked so hard for.

BTW, I will expect you to read all of my posts, and we will require a complete review, by 6:00 PM each evening.

:lol: Okay, but really with 4 posts under your belt (as of the time of this post) it really shouldn't be too difficult. :lol:

BTW, seriously, welcome to the boards. We need new blood.

 

[AZScanner]

APCO P25 Phase I transmit via FDMA (C4 variety), a modulation scheme that is not receivable by an analog FM receiver. Phase II P25 systems will use TDMA, also not recoverable by an analog FM receiver. When you get your EE degree, this will all make sense. In the meantime, buy a PRO-96 if you want to listen to P25, but don't go overboard on such gear. Soon, Public Safety Agencies running P25 systems will encrypt with DES-OFB, and/or AES. Then it's ba-bye scanners! Sigh...

Sigh indeed.... :roll:

Remember when public safety switched to VHF? People just like you said that was the end of scanning.

Remember when public safety started using UHF too? Same result.

Remember when trunking started catching on? Same tired prediction.

Remember when APCO-25 was announced? Yep, the naysayers predicted impending doom once again.

Now the boogeyman du jour is encryption. And the same prediction is yet again rearing it's ugly head.

So far you doom and gloom types have been 0 for 4. So you'll understand if I take your statements with the proverbial grain of salt. Quite simply put, I've heard it all before.

You know gang, this is a perfect opportunity for us veterans to inform the newbies that the future of this hobby is up to us! If we conduct ourselves appropriately and not abuse the PRIVILEGE (yes I said PRIVILEGE) of listening in, there will be no reason to take it away. If, on the other hand, we act like retards and become nuisances, then yes, I'd expect the local agencies to flick the switch.

A letter recently sent to the media in Arizona from the Phoenix PD pretty much spelled it out:

Your input from our August 4th meeting was passed along to Chief Jack
Harris. After conferring with his Executive Staff members, as well
as other Valley agencies who are or will be coming aboard with 800
MHz systems, a decision was made to leave our routine precinct
frequencies AND our emergency frequencies un-encrypted. This means
the public, including media outlets, will continue to be able to
monitor what you have traditionally been able to monitor. If it is
deemed that an emergency situation should be worked on an encrypted
channel, we will simply move that radio traffic to one of dozens of
encrypted channels available for such purposes. I would expect that
this would rarely occur, but should it be necessary to do so, our 800
MHz system still has the capability to do so.

This decision reflects Chief Harris' comittment to maintaining our
open relationship with local media outlets, as well as his
expectation that local media representatives will continue to use
this access to police communications information in a professional
manner to serve the public safety interests of our community.

So there you have it, Mr. Glockorola. If all P25 enabled agencies encrypt, chances are we will only have ourselves to blame. LISTEN RESPONSIBLY - it can't be stressed enough.

-AZ

 

[Glockorola]

The Seattle system is uplifting to P25 with AES encryption in 2Q06, which is only a little more than one-and-a-half years away. As to costs, the infrastructure alone for this system was over $70 million (and rising everyday as additional sites and receivers are added), with encryption costs being reasonably small, in light of these huge infrastructure numbers. Seattle PD is already carrying IMBE equipped Motorola ASTRO Saber II portables. Their contractual encryption uplift costs for these radios is $230 per radio under their original contract. $184,000 to uplift with AES modules (800 SPD portables) is a small price to pay (about the same as the fully loaded cost of 1 cop for one year). Remember that this system serves almost all Gov't/Metro users in the Puget Sound Area. Only Seattle PD and King County PD are going encrypted at the get go, with the other Public Safety Agencies in the Puget Sound Area following suit in a project managed roll-out. So, you will still be able to listen to the bureaucrats, etc. but soon, there will be no Public Safety to monitor in Seattle. The same trend will roll out across the country.

I challenge anyone to show me even one single example of folks monitoring DES-OFB or AES encrypted P25 traffic.

The only argument that the head-in-the-sand folks have to use against encryption is the additional marginal costs incurred. Keep in mind that you are fighting a losing battle! Costs are going down---WAY down, so time is on the side of cheap encryption. AES is already down to a list price of under $400 on a new XTL5000/XTS5000. Under volume contracts, some Agencies in the DHS are getting AES for $200 per radio. A year or two from now, we may see sub-$200 AES list prices. That would mean volume discount prices could be in the sub-$100 arena. Now what stands against encryption?

If scanner enthusiasts are relying on the Public to support them, fahgettaboutit! Check out the “Patriot Act,” etc. if you think the Gov't is going to be shy about encryption! As time goes by, the Public will become even more supportive of encryption, especially as Secretary Tom Ridge, AG John Ashcroft, etc. make their cases. BTW, I FULLY SUPPORT the “Patriot Act” and Secretary Ridge, AG Ashcroft, and their colleagues and what they are trying to do: Protect Us from The Evil Doers!

I sure as heck never predicted the demise of scanners due to UHF, Trunking, etc. These were all technical issues, easily solved. Alternatively stated, this is simply the progression of technology.

BTW, I've heard the argument that digital will never replace analog in cellular. Yeah, right. Also, there is the argument that P25 will never replace FM. Yeah, right.

So, burry your head in the sand and gleefully (and naively) hope that the Gov't won't encrypt, and Al Keida will just go away, because we don't like them. Yeah, right...

Be careful how much of that scanner company stock you buy. The guy with the MBA can tell you the story about the Horse & Buggy!

 

[Thayne]

Al Keida??

Wasn't he a friend of Jack Schitt? :?

 

[crayon]

However and whenever true encryption shows itself, it will not easy.

The algorithm, sometimes referred to as "single DES" uses a 56-bit key to encrypt blocks of data, and can produce up to 72,000,000,000,000,000 unique keys.

For systems running single DES, it is possible the encryption key could be extracted. In an 1998 experiment funded by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, they designed a machine that could break one DES key a week.

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Crypto/Crypto_misc/DESCracker/

With computers doubling in speed every 18 months, a similar system designed with 2004 technology could presumably break a key in 1/64th of that time.

AES encryption? .. yeah, you can forget about that for now.

Here is some more stuff to read taken from this thread:

DVP/DVP-XL/DES/DES-XL used for RF has NEVER been cracked, except under controlled circumstances with Supercomputers to see how long it would take. I would like anyone to prove otherwise.

Actually, DES has already been cracked, by the hobbyist community no less (not the RF version, but....)

The EFF DES Crack Challenge was done in 22 hours using distributed.net, checking keys at 245 billion keys per second.

The range of possible combinations vary from 7.2 x 10-16power (that's 720,000,000,000,000,000) for DES, up to 7.9 X 10-28power (790,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) for DVP-XL. And it's not like you can "get close" and partially recover the audio. If you get even a single bit wrong in the encryption key, you cannot recover ANY audio.

Todd, the DES-OFB standard is publicly available for all to see, thru the TIA documents that are part of the Project-25 standard. Part of what has made DES/XL fairly secure has been the fact that it is extremely difficult to get technical details on the CVSD vocoder. Motorola holds that information as a closely guarded secret. The entire DES-OFB routine and process is available for anyone to use.

There is already a software-based vocoder recovery routine written to decode APCO-25 through the soundcard (it is not publicly available at this time). DES-OFB was chosen as part of the Project-25 standard because it is a mode of DES which takes less processing power to encrypt/unencrypt, and therefore is inherently "less secure" than some of the other modes of DES (like CFB etc). All that needs to happen is for someone to identify bits that are common with a standard IMBE vocoder frame, and apply a DES Cracking routine to it. Sounds far fetched, but with Moore's law at work, it *could* become easier and easier to accomplish, and is certainly not far fetched any longer.

That is why AES has become the new standard. The government *knows* that DES is unsecure in this day and time.

 

[Glockorola]

AES has 256 keys, and it is now the standard encryption type for the Fed Agencies with their P25 radios. About 80% of Motorola's P25 radios equipped with encryption are now shipping with the AES algorythm.

Again, I have yet to hear/see even a single scanner for consumers equipped to recover even the less powerful DES-OFB, and/or DES-CFB, let alone AES.

Sure, blowhearts have all kinds of stories about supposedly almost cracking DES (albeit, not AES), but it's just hot air. It's always some supposed experiment by a group of severely obeese bloviating geeks, with horrendous cases of horrible halitosis, running parallel PCs for weeks on end, desparately trying to crack one key.

To learn more about these folks, the University of Washington has a great class where you can study this phenomenon. It's HSS 435, "Folktales and Folklore." Professor Skeeles teaches it, and it may enlighten you how to better spot these DES cracking folktales.

 

[N_Jay]

Let me know when you have it done, :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

The reality of the situation is DVP/DES "might" be able to be cracked in a reasonable amout of time, but no one is using that much anymore.
Tripple DES is much more secure and is being decommishioned for truely tyop secret work.

AES is even more secure, and will probably be decommissioned well before any serious threat has the power to crack it.

As for teh "hobbiest, Forgetbaout it. Go find someone running fixed frequency inversion, and be proud of yourself for "cracking" it!

 

[crayon]

AES has 256 keys

lol. I wish.

 

[N_Jay]

AES has 256 keys

lol. I wish.

LOL, :twisted: how the heck did I miss that one???

 

[kikito]

I challenge anyone to show me even one single example of folks monitoring DES-OFB or AES encrypted P25 traffic.

No one said it can be done, at least not practically....

You can buy everything you need from eBay or behind an alley from someone's trunk and then you "buy out" a radio technician or someone on the inside that can get their hands on the keys used....

BTW, I FULLY SUPPORT the “Patriot Act” and Secretary Ridge, AG Ashcroft, and their colleagues and what they are trying to do: Protect Us from The Evil Doers!

I would like to see or hear how encryption would've protected us from the (9/11) events and how it would do that in the future against people that are not afraid to kill themselves to achieve their goal.

 

[Glockorola]

Sorry. I meant to say "AES has 256 bits." DES has 56.