Some Questions and Help with Our Ski Team (repeater, large ski resort, 501c3)...

[George12345]

Hello,
I've done some reading and I'll be honest, many of the answers are quite confusing to me.
So for some background...
I coach ski racing for a 501c3 with about 300 racers, and 40 coaches. We've been a 501c3 for the last 25 years or so, and used analog radios that had been "orphaned" to us by the resort ski patrol when they were done using them or upgraded their own (currently about 50 radios from all over the map).

Originally, our radios and frequencies were licensed by the resort and we were "given" their old radios on old frequencies the resort no longer used.... but since then we have grown much larger and now run independently (although still very aligned with the resort).

The old radios (and frequencies), we have continued to use over the years from default, but as I'm now looking at everything, it seems we have not licensed the frequencies, and hence are "illegal". Not purposefully, just as a matter of using "old" donated radios - and not knowing the fcc rules.

Over the last several years the resort has expanded and is one of the largest in the US. We have athletes all over the resort (several mountains), and now lose signal in a basic "simplex" radio setup. So I was tasked with "updating" our radio communications and am looking at all the options, and definitely need to be legal.

From a terrain standpoint we cover 3 valleys separated ridges (base is 7,000ft, peak is 11,000ft), the race arena is at 7,000 ft, but we have racers on the backside of the mountain (2-3 miles away as the crow flies).

We currently use 5 separate frequencies 461.xxx to 464.xxx that were assigned 20+ years ago to the radios. These are necessary as we have several subgoups of Ski Racers, Snowboard Team, Freeride Team, all training at the same time.

What I want to do is make it so that we don't lose reception when coaches/athletes go over the ridgeline, preferably keeping 5 separate communication lines...

From what I understand we need to...
1) Use a repeater (can we use GMRS on a public repeater?)
2) Update our radios to digital
3) Obtain a FCC license for GMRS, and/or further?
where I'm confused is...
4) Do we need a license for all our frequencies, if so is that the same as our license for GMRS, or do we need a different one? or additional one. I think GMRS may be a better use, instead of installing 5 repeaters?
5) Many of our radios are advertised for over 5w, does this require a different license?
6) Do we need to install a repeater on top of the mountain (we should be able to do this as we work closely with the resort and they already have 8 installed)?
7) Is there another way to do this instead of trying to install 5 repeaters for our 5 frequencies?

Most important, we want to be legal and on the "correct" side of fcc rules.

Any pointers are appreciated,
Thank you!

 

[clbsquared]

Your best option is to obtain a business license from the FCC. This way you will have your own frequencies. Don' use GMRS, you need to be private so to speak. You can hire a coordinator who will do all of the application and leg work for you at a flat fee. Last time I checked, I believe it was around $600 for the coordination of multiple frequencies and the FCC license for 10 years.

Installing a repeater would be to your advantage as would using a digital system. Although, analog wouldn't be that bad.

There are others here that can go into more detail about using a trunking system. Just keep in mind the cost for a digital trunking system can be high.

Your first order should be finding out what you can be licensed for and proceed accordingly. Contact a license/ frequency coordinator and go from there.

 

[radioman2001]

Keep it simple, if the radios you have a reprogrammable just reuse them after licensing. If not try and get licensed for the frequencies already in them. Then if you want one repeater per valley, but stay analog it's cheaper. Don't be BSed by the dealers. Total licensing fee around $600.00 to $1000.00 figuring 3 sites at $240.00 per site mobiles/portables at around $100.00, and FCC fee at around $250.00 Each repeater is going to run about $2k all said and done, unless you can find used ones that are narrow-band compliant.
Big thing get the licensing going first, if possible get a copy of the old license from the resort that has the frequencies you have in the radios. Use that as a template for what you do.

 

[TampaTyron]

I would enlist the local dealer who services the resort in order to guide you through this (if the resort trusts them and has a good relationship). If the resort has a single repeater location AND that location would cover your entire area of operations, then this would be a relatively simple system. If you do not want to purchase all new radios, you will be required to install 5 repeaters to get all 5 wide area repeated paths. If you were willing to purchase new radios, then I would recommend trunking. Since my experience is with Motorola systems, you could easily deploy 2 repeaters in MOTOTRBO Capacity Plus mode to service your 5 (and up to probably 10-12 groups) reliably. Motorola's technology is DMR, which give 2 voice paths per repeater. Other technologies are similar and may need more or less equipment based on your needs. I would strongly recommend buying into the local company who is setting the system up, not a specific technology/manufacturer. You want to avoid the case where your local guy is unreliable or many hours away because someone on the internet said to buy X, Y, or Z.

So, in summary:
-Single site Capacity Plus (or whatever technology you end up with) with 2 repeaters and 2 repeater licenses
-License handful of simplex (non-repeated) channels for use if system fails or people need "off network" communication
-Radio that are rugged enough for your use case (Waterproof, display/no display, Intrinsically Safe, etc)
-Audio accessories for your users like speaker mics, earpieces, headsets, etc

If the resort has a large enough trunking system with spare capacity, then they may be willing to give you (or rent) you space on their system. Then you would only have to buy the radios. Let us know what finally happens, TT.

 

[krokus]

GMRS is not your answer. Each person would need their own license, or be covered by a family license. (Family living in the same residence.)

Get licenses for your agency, for each frequency, and frequency pair you want to use. (Repeaters, each need two frequencies.)

Depending on geography, repeaters might be able to be placed on opposite sides of the mountain, which can be linked.

A trunked system could work, but you want to get a consultant for that.

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[Hans13]

GMRS is not your answer. Each person would need their own license, or be covered by a family license. (Family living in the same residence.)

True, GMRS is not the solution for their situation. However, family does not have to live in the residence to be eligible to transmit under a GMRS license.

.
.
.
(c)Individuals who may operate a GMRS station. This paragraph establishes who may operate a GMRS station under the authority of an individual license.

(1) Any individual who holds an individual license may operate his or her GMRS stations.

(2) Any individual who holds an individual license may allow his or her immediate family members to operate his or her GMRS station or stations. Immediate family members are the licensee's spouse, children, grandchildren, stepchildren, parents, grandparents, stepparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, and in-laws.

47 CFR 95.1705 - Individual licenses required; eligibility; who may operate; cooperative use.

 

[mmckenna]

Welcome George.

To clarify a few things, I'm going to answer these questions in order, see below:

From what I understand we need to...
1) Use a repeater (can we use GMRS on a public repeater?)

Yes, sounds like you'll need at least one repeater to get the coverage on the back sides of mountains. GMRS is not an option unless each and every individual family gets their own licenses.

2) Update our radios to digital

Not a requirement, analog is still 100% legal on the bands you'd be using. Replacing all your radios will be expensive, as in a few hundred per radio, plus you'll likely need new accessories, spare batteries, programming, etc. Digital has it's benefits as well as some drawbacks. Unless you guys have a huge wad of money burning a hole in your budget, don't decide on going digital until you look at all the options.

3) Obtain a FCC license for GMRS, and/or further?

Your group will need a license, but not GMRS. You'll need to work with a professional on this. You will need to work with a frequency coordinator to find available channel pairs. You'll need assistance filing the paper work.

where I'm confused is...
4) Do we need a license for all our frequencies, if so is that the same as our license for GMRS, or do we need a different one? or additional one. I think GMRS may be a better use, instead of installing 5 repeaters?

GMRS is not a realistic option for what you are doing.
Your group will need an FCC Part 90 license. One license will cover all your repeaters and radios, however, each and every fixed repeater will need to be listed on that license.

5) Many of our radios are advertised for over 5w, does this require a different license?

You will be licensing a system, not individual radios. When the people that assist you fill out the paper work, they'll enter the pertinent information on the application. That will include the number of portable/mobile radios and the maximum power output. More than 5 watts isn't an issue.

6) Do we need to install a repeater on top of the mountain (we should be able to do this as we work closely with the resort and they already have 8 installed)?

Mountain tops are usually the best locations. For some mountain side applications, at the base looking up can work. This is where you need a professional to assist you with the system design. Picking a random location and installing the equipment isn't the correct approach. A pro can do coverage mapping and determine an ideal location for each repeater to give you the desired coverage area your group is looking for.

Installing the physical repeater is only part of the challenge. There's more equipment that goes into it. Antennas are absolutely key to good performance. Don't skimp on the antenna, mountain tops are hard locations to be a repeater antenna. You don't want to buy a random antenna off e-bay or Amazon.
You'll need quality feed line and connectors, this can be measured in dollars per foot of cable. Connectors can be expensive.
Mounting locations are important. High winds and harsh conditions will take their toll. Mounting your antennas on a existing structure used by the ski resort might be an option, but again, it's not as simple as bolting an antenna to the side of a tower. Structural design of the tower will dictate how much is can support, how much wind loading (consider the amount of ice/show that will add to the wind load…), and location on the tower will need to be determined.
Duplexers that separate the antenna feed line into the separate receiver and transmitter connections is very important. Getting the duplexer properly tuned for your system needs to be done by a pro.
You'll also need to consider how to power all this equipment. While commercial power is a good option, consider that in harsh conditions power may be interrupted. Having a battery backup will be important.

Locations for all this equipment is important. You'll need to work with the professionals to determine the correct location, mounting design, cabling, and all the equipment that's involved to make the system work correctly.

7) Is there another way to do this instead of trying to install 5 repeaters for our 5 frequencies?

Depends entirely on what your expectations are. This is where a professional can save you a lot of time and money.
There is the equipment side to all of this, then there's the design on how it gets used. All the equipment in the world isn't going to solve your communications needs if it's not put into use correctly.
You'll need to figure out what your needs are before you go much farther. Repeaters are expensive, so is their upkeep and feeding, so planning carefully and having realistic expectations is very important. Far to often I hear people say "I need coverage everywhere", usually followed by them saying they have a ridiculously small budget to accomplish that. Getting professionals involved and talking all this through before applying for licenses or buy ANY equipment will be very important. Hobby websites are not the best source of this information. It's a good start, but you really need to work with a reputable professional to do this right and not waste a bunch of money.

Before you do much else, you need to figure out exactly what your needs are. Then you need to come up with a reasonable budget to do the design. Get the design done before you go any farther.

That professional will also look at all your existing equipment and determine what can be reused and what needs to be replaced. Back in 2013, the FCC made some technical changes. Your existing radio might be capable of being reprogrammed to support those changes, or they may not be.

Most important, we want to be legal and on the "correct" side of fcc rules.

And we appreciate that. If your group is not FCC licensed for those frequencies, there is the very likely chance that the frequency is, or may, get licensed by someone else. From a high mountain top location it's entirely possible you could be interfering with licensed users and not know it.


You absolutely do not want to go into this with any pre-conceived notions about what specific digital mode you are going to use, which brand, which frequencies or band, or much else. While ideally you'll be able to use some or all of your existing gear, don't let that tie you to any one specific solution. Again, this is where a professional can save you a LOT of money, time, effort and maybe legal issues. It's not for the hobbyist, and it's certainly not something that is accomplished by purchasing random equipment, radios, antennas, etc. off e-Bay, Amazon, Chinese manufacturers, amateur radio operators or the like. I've had to fix a few systems that were built this way, and any ideas of cost savings were quickly lost by having to redo parts of the system. It's always better to spend a bit more now, than twice as much later.

 

[Firebuff880]

@George12345

I have been working with a number of Ski areas on 2019 projects where they will have fairly large Motorola MOTOTRBO systems, either Multi-site Capacity Plus or Capacity Max. Both offer a form of trunking and more important shared channel use. The objectives for these projects are Ski Patrol tracking and dispatching as well as general Property Management Dispatching and operation. With Lone Worker and Emergency Declaration key components from the safety side.

If I were you I would approach the Ski Area management and see what they have in place or planed, and if you can work out a services agreement with them to use the infrastructure they may have and then buy / rent the subscriber gear to use on the existing system from the dealer who is responsible for the system. With proper system administration you will not even know this is a shared service..

------------------------------

 

[Mike_G_D]

My professional RF experience is in the lab designing and testing subscriber units so I can't offer any better advice in terms of licensing, what to purchase, system design, etc. All the advice given here already is excellent, as far as I can tell.

But here's something else - if you're forced to a "beer budget" and everyone wants champagne all the time try and think how you could work out serving the "beer" most of the time but on special occasions you break out the "champagne".

By this I mean, let's say you do everything suggested here and get a good solid professional to help you work things out and you discover that your budget is just not going to cover what you want, repeater ("champagne") -wise. Ok, ask yourself, does every user really need to have wide area coverage all of the time? Can you get by with just one repeater centrally located and plan to use it carefully, say, for example, during a large race, and train everyone to use it sparingly just when they really need it. Then most of the local on-site usage is by simplex. Maybe you really need more than one repeater but try hard and see if you can work out a way to minimize the wide area need to just occasional planned use so as to reduce the need for more than one or two wide area channels.

Extra thought and planning can overcome some budget limitations.

-Mike

 

[George12345]

Thank you all for the excellent advice. I think the next step we will take is getting with the mountain manager and figure out who services them and see if we can come to some agreement. Once we know the "situation" we can then decide how/what to get licensed for. As with all 501c3's we are super budget conscious, but at the same time realize that safety is paramount... and communication is integral to safety. We can budget for next year, and have some financial flexibility, but also knowing "what" we need to have covered and to what extent would be key.

Great points by all!

I'll keep everyone updated as I'm sure I'm not the first one to run into this

Thank you again!

 

[allend]

I use to do ski patrol for a couple of years up in a local mountain and you need to make sure your coverage works well through out the whole mountain. A lot of the valleys we patrolled had dead zones. So making sure you have enough repeaters is key. Also, digital is not always the best option in these situations. Staying on analog might be the best option to stick with. Anytime you go digital you are using compression to the airwave which may degrade the signal in mountain areas with peaks and valleys. I always knew where the radio would work and would not work. I just did not communicate in certain areas. But you know how it works at the end of the day its all about dollars and cents and how much money will be in the budget to either repair or replace some radios or upgrade the whole system.

When the quote comes back on a whole upgrade then the question will be what can we do to limp along and make our analog radios to work on our analog repeater for our needs. Maybe just use your existing frequencies and upgrade the radios and limp along. Some of these people on this RR site have good intentions but its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Good Luck

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Hello,
I've done some reading and I'll be honest, many of the answers are quite confusing to me.
So for some background...
I coach ski racing for a 501c3 with about 300 racers, and 40 coaches. We've been a 501c3 for the last 25 years or so, and used analog radios that had been "orphaned" to us by the resort ski patrol when they were done using them or upgraded their own (currently about 50 radios from all over the map).

Originally, our radios and frequencies were licensed by the resort and we were "given" their old radios on old frequencies the resort no longer used.... but since then we have grown much larger and now run independently (although still very aligned with the resort).

The old radios (and frequencies), we have continued to use over the years from default, but as I'm now looking at everything, it seems we have not licensed the frequencies, and hence are "illegal". Not purposefully, just as a matter of using "old" donated radios - and not knowing the fcc rules.

Over the last several years the resort has expanded and is one of the largest in the US. We have athletes all over the resort (several mountains), and now lose signal in a basic "simplex" radio setup. So I was tasked with "updating" our radio communications and am looking at all the options, and definitely need to be legal.

From a terrain standpoint we cover 3 valleys separated ridges (base is 7,000ft, peak is 11,000ft), the race arena is at 7,000 ft, but we have racers on the backside of the mountain (2-3 miles away as the crow flies).

We currently use 5 separate frequencies 461.xxx to 464.xxx that were assigned 20+ years ago to the radios. These are necessary as we have several subgoups of Ski Racers, Snowboard Team, Freeride Team, all training at the same time.

What I want to do is make it so that we don't lose reception when coaches/athletes go over the ridgeline, preferably keeping 5 separate communication lines...

From what I understand we need to...
1) Use a repeater (can we use GMRS on a public repeater?)
2) Update our radios to digital
3) Obtain a FCC license for GMRS, and/or further?
where I'm confused is...
4) Do we need a license for all our frequencies, if so is that the same as our license for GMRS, or do we need a different one? or additional one. I think GMRS may be a better use, instead of installing 5 repeaters?
5) Many of our radios are advertised for over 5w, does this require a different license?
6) Do we need to install a repeater on top of the mountain (we should be able to do this as we work closely with the resort and they already have 8 installed)?
7) Is there another way to do this instead of trying to install 5 repeaters for our 5 frequencies?

Most important, we want to be legal and on the "correct" side of fcc rules.

Any pointers are appreciated,
Thank you!

1) If you have dead spots you will probably need a repeater. No on the GMRS, a business license in Part 90 is what you need.

2) Not required to go digital, but might be the right fit for you. You can have better coverage, GPS locations of personell and vehicles, etc. read on.

3) A frequency coordinator will help obtain the license. The FCC website has links to coordinators for various services. Get the coverage planned and your sites picked out first, then do the licensing.

4) Yup on license, nope on GMRS.

5) Your repeater(s) will have one power level like 50 watts, the portables 5 watts, the mobiles perhaps 50 watts unless you have a need for more.

6) You need to start with a coverage survey to determine where to place the repeater. Your limiting power will be the 4 or 5 watts a portable radio will talk back to the repeater so a 50 watt talk out map will miss the TB dead spots.

7) If you are lucky, you can install the repeater(s) at a common point at top of mountain and you will need fewer repeaters. I recommend DMR (MotoTrbo, etc) as it will provide two talk groups for each repeater. Because of the critical nature of the work, you might want 2 or 3 repeaters and thus can have up to 6 simultaneous time slots, 5 of which can be your talk groups and 1 for GPS data. You can program talk groups channels and time-slots such that you can have repeater back up on a second repeater for same talk group if necessary. You don't need proprietary Tier 3 trunking for this you can use Tier 2.

If you need more repeaters to provide the coverage the DMR can provide internet protocol site connect (IPSC) which basically takes two differenbt DMR repeaters on seperate frequencies and links them together transparently. The porttables roam seemlessly between repeaters (make sure the portable model supports roaming if you foresee this need)

DMR digital provides a bit of a boost in coverage compared to narrow band FM. It is pretty significant in practice. The downside of DMR is that the fidelity is, well digital.

You will need at some point to do an intermodulation study (IM) to make sure your frequencies dont interfere with the existing ones at the resort. The resort will be happy you consider this. A list of all the existing TX and RX freqs is necessary for a start.

I recommend having a vendor neutral LMR consultant help you with planning this system. Having coverage maps and a known budget is a good place to start any project like this and a consultant can do this. PM me if you have any questions I might be able to help.

Oh as far as coverage of analog vs digital, digital is indeed better. see the link below and look at maps toward bottom of the page in mountainous California areas. The maps are P25 but same as DMR in parameters. More Green is good.

LEIKHIM AND ASSOCIATES LLC - VHF-UHF Narrowbanding

 

[westcoaster]

You'll also need to consider how to power all this equipment. While commercial power is a good option, consider that in harsh conditions power may be interrupted. Having a battery backup will be important.

I'll take the liberty of snipping and focusing on one particular area... (just adding to this thought...)

UPS battery backups do far more these days than simply provide AC power in the case of a mains power interruption.
edit: a mountain top location may provide far more challenges in clean power than an urban enviroment will ever see

A basic UPS provides protection for power failure, power surges and power sags.

A top of the line UPS can provide protection for Power failure, power sags, power surges, under voltage, over voltage, electric line noise, frequency variation, switching transient, and harmonic distortion.

What UPS you choose if any, would be dependent on the sensitivity of your chosen equipment to having access to clean power.

Yes, I did quote the above specs from a particular UPS manufactures page, mainly to provide an example of capabilities. Your chosen UPS manufacturer may have different capabilities.

 

[TampaTyron]

Worked with a ski resort complex recently where they were having coverage trouble. I was the 4th or 5th tech working on the system. In a short time I found they were using very high gain antennas for their repeater's receive (around 10-12dB). They were using approx 2-3dB gain antennas for repeater's transmit. This resulted in a coverage imbalance causing the areas near the mountain to be able to hear the repeaters very well. But, the repeaters had a hard time hearing the subscribers unless they were 20-40 miles away. The lesson to keep in mind for technical personnel is that gain antennas are not a free lunch. You are not "gaining" anything, you are merely shifting the coverage pattern from near to the antenna to further towards the horizon. I run into this all the time, not sure why the concept isn't more widely understood. TT

 

[jim202]

Not wanting to de focus on your efforts, but it might help the group to have a better understanding if we knew at least what state your in.

Many years back I was servicing several ski areas up in Vermont. At times it was a real chore and at the rest of the times, I enjoyed it. But the weather was a major concern. The ski areas each had at least one repeater on their mountain.

Problem was with high mountains and trying provide coverage at the lodge down near the bottom, the antennas had to have some major down tilt of the radiation pattern. This is not a standard antenna and as such you really need to get some technical support involved with what your trying to do.

Not all the mountains will have electrical power at the top. So you need to do your homework and see what the actual details are and how much power is really available if a repeater needs to be installed. In some cases, there is a ski patrol hut at the top of the mountains and is staffed. That way if an accident occurs on the slopes, help is available much faster than trying to get a snow cat brought up the slop from the bottom. In some cases, you can't get a snow cat up some of the slopes.

So sit down, really plan out what your looking to do and come back to the group once you have some facts and feedback from the property owners. This is not going to happen this snow season. It will take time to pull it all together. If you need to get any licenses, that will also take time and need to be coordinated before anything can be sent to the FCC.

It would also help if you provided the brand and model numbers of the radios your looking to use. In trying to read between the lines, I sort of am getting the impression that the radios may be really old and even be of the type that would need to use crystals to put them on frequency. If that is the case, they probably can't be used due to the narrow banding that took place a number of years back. It side lined a whole pile of radios and made them basically useless.

The other issue of being old radios, is the batteries are probably dead and will need to be replaced, if the radios are of a model type that can be used these days. So you need to provide detailed info on the radios as well.

This may sound like a bunch of work, but it needs to be done to make any recommendations on what you may be able to do.

 

[mmckenna]

I'll take the liberty of snipping and focusing on one particular area... (just adding to this thought...)

UPS battery backups do far more these days than simply provide AC power in the case of a mains power interruption.
edit: a mountain top location may provide far more challenges in clean power than an urban enviroment will ever see

……...

Yes, I did quote the above specs from a particular UPS manufactures page, mainly to provide an example of capabilities. Your chosen UPS manufacturer may have different capabilities.

No, not a UPS, too inefficient, too expensive. Most repeaters are designed to run off 12 or 24 volts DC (Some run 48 volts, depending on the application). Running a bank of batteries big enough to give the run time that they determine they need is easier to do with stand alone batteries and either a float charger in the repeater itself (a'la Motorola) or run an external charger, solar panels, and/or wind generator.

UPS systems are a poor choice for any high drain load that needs to run for a long time.

 

[R8000]

I would enlist the local dealer who services the resort in order to guide you through this (if the resort trusts them and has a good relationship).

This.

This is the best advice given.

While RR can be a great source for things, you really need the help of a local vendor. Enlisting the help of the same vendor the ski resort uses is your best bet indeed. They can probably offer a turnkey solution with your FCC license or adding your radios to the resort's trunking system.

Yea, it may cost your group some money, but you'd be legal and doing the proper ethical thing. You also woudn't be burnt by throwing your own equipment at the problem based on wrong info from a internet forum. Just do it right the first time. Yes, it's money spent, but it's a smart use of money.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Since the resort has 8 repeaters I'd get with them about sharing space and possibly their antenna system. If they are DMR it should be very easy to add talkgroups on their system. If they aren't I'd be happy to quote them, like all the other dealers here...