Southern California Frequency Reassignments

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tomasG

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I noted that South L.A. and Baldwin Park are now on new frequencies and repeated. Baldwin Park sounds great but South L.A. sounds terrible. I've heard rumors that CHP is going to 700/800 and VHF highband, but that doesn't really jive with deploying 39MHz repeaters. Other rumors I've heard are that CHP bought E.F. Johnson triband portables and THEY will be used for interoperability with allied agencies with or without trunked systems, ICIS, or P25. I realize that California may become the first state to declare bancruptcy and has no money. But does this mean that LA-RICS is DOA?

I also noted that Inland Blue has been reallocated. 39.14MHz seems to have fallen off the list here. Blue 2 45.4200 has now been assigned -- is it replacing 39.14MHz?
 

code6

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Hearing L.A. Central office on 44.94 and a pl tone of 186.2 and it is repeated!
Also hearing what sounds like radio techs range testing on 44.74 pl 186.2
They were in the area of the 210 and 134 fwys.
 

K6CDO

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Yes! 44.94 loud and clear and repeated! I think this pretty much rules out CHP moving to 700MHz for dispatch.
Check around the other areas of the California Forum.
CHP is rebuilding the dispatch network on lowband, and will be moving their 154.905 MHz VHF vehicular repeater network to 700 MHz.

Don
 

tomasG

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My point was that after a lot of reading stuff dated back to 2002 about how CHP was moving to 700/800 it turns out that they are staying on low band. I'm not sure why they would move off of 154.905 for their extenders when the E.F. Johnson works there. That would offer them even shorter range than now. Just last night I heard a CHP officer chasing someone and he ran out of range of his extender. I don't know why, either. A 5 watt portable to a 2 watt extender and roof mounted 1/4 wave. When I drive back and forth to school I listen to the extender channel just to know if I am close to a speeding ticket :) I can hear them for several miles. Once units got closer they switched to direct and found their officer on 154.905.

But I did notice that California, State of is licensing 20 watt VHF frequencies with relays (FX2) located all around Riverside county freeways. Is it possible that they are going to use a low power cellular-like mobile extender solution rather than repeaters up on tall hills? It was like 154.68 or something and I cannot locate it again. These type of extenders could easily be mounted on light poles and be linked via IP. I'm pretty new to this, but we're learning about similar things in school. I know that we have light poles here in Lancaster that still have 1/4 wave whips on them that I am told were remote receivers for county sheriff when they were on low band. This would kind of make sense because as I am listening CHP dispatch is complaining that there are too many extenders on at the scene and she cannot copy. If the extender were not vehicle mounted this wouldn't be a problm.
 

WayneH

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My point was that after a lot of reading stuff dated back to 2002 about how CHP was moving to 700/800 it turns out that they are staying on low band. I'm not sure why they would move off of 154.905 for their extenders when the E.F. Johnson works there.

It was like 154.68 or something and I cannot locate it again.
Without any background on the 700/800 switch I can say they'll have better mutual aid capability via whichever local trunked system they're granted access to and also the State 800 conventional repeaters (CLEMARS, etc). There's no VHF repeated system for MA.

154.68 is CA DOJ.
 

tomasG

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I am not positive on the frequency I mentioned. I just noted that they were 20 watts FX2 20K0F2E (digital voice.) Because of the locations up and down the freeways of Riverside I envisioned P25 portables using a burst to ask which node could hear it best. It was just odd to see the same frequency, low power, digital, reused along known freeways.
 

K6CDO

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My point was that after a lot of reading stuff dated back to 2002 about how CHP was moving to 700/800 it turns out that they are staying on low band. I'm not sure why they would move off of 154.905 for their extenders when the E.F. Johnson works there. That would offer them even shorter range than now. Just last night I heard a CHP officer chasing someone and he ran out of range of his extender. I don't know why, either. A 5 watt portable to a 2 watt extender and roof mounted 1/4 wave. When I drive back and forth to school I listen to the extender channel just to know if I am close to a speeding ticket :) I can hear them for several miles. Once units got closer they switched to direct and found their officer on 154.905.
As a member of the planning group in Sacramento (for a different State agency) between 1995 and 2006, I can state that a LOT of misinformation "what (this or that state agency) is going to do was reported. A strategic plan was developed, calling for a statewide VHF-Hi trunked system with 700 MHz trunked channel augmentation in the densely populated areas. That plan went no where due to the price tag (which was presented as the total cost over the 15-20 year life of the network, but read by the politicos as the initial investment price).

As I was leaving State service 4 years ago, the CHP sought and received $500M in non-General Fund funding to rebuild their low band infrastructure, with 700 MHz extenders (to allow for better building penetration than VHF simplex, and more available frequencies).

The current 154.905 extender operates at .5 watts in the car, paired with 1.5 watts from the hand held radio. The receiver is purposely numbed to prevent signals from afar tripping the relay. The 700 MHz equipment will not have the low power limitation.

But I did notice that California, State of is licensing 20 watt VHF frequencies with relays (FX2) located all around Riverside county freeways. Is it possible that they are going to use a low power cellular-like mobile extender solution rather than repeaters up on tall hills? It was like 154.68 or something and I cannot locate it again. These type of extenders could easily be mounted on light poles and be linked via IP. I'm pretty new to this, but we're learning about similar things in school. I know that we have light poles here in Lancaster that still have 1/4 wave whips on them that I am told were remote receivers for county sheriff when they were on low band. This would kind of make sense because as I am listening CHP dispatch is complaining that there are too many extenders on at the scene and she cannot copy. If the extender were not vehicle mounted this wouldn't be a problm.
The VHF channel you mention is not a CHP channel, so I suspect not. The VHF Low Band antennas on various light poles (at signal-controlled intersections) in Los Angeles County were for the clocks in the traffic signal control boxes (which synchronized to WWVB on 60 kHz) to coordinate the time that various modes shifted (rush hour vs. middle of the night traffic patterns). These were put in during the late 1970s / early 1980s, before GPS or other methods of receiving network timing was available.

Don
 

tomasG

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Thanks, Don.

As I said, the frequency I gave of 154.68 I know is wrong but I cannot seem to find the listing again. The odd part is that the simplex frequency was assigned up and down freeway locations using 20 watts, zero ERP, and digital. I still suspect that some type of cellular system is in the works for an extender replacement. Solar powered and IP fed it could easily replace the extenders. As for 700MHz penetrating better into buildings, don't Chippies drive cars ;) Their current VHF extender setup has limitations that wouldn't disappear by going up in frequency. We are studing RF propagation at the moment and I know that VHF has a 20% edge over UHF.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
 

K6CDO

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Thanks, Don.

As I said, the frequency I gave of 154.68 I know is wrong but I cannot seem to find the listing again. The odd part is that the simplex frequency was assigned up and down freeway locations using 20 watts, zero ERP, and digital. I still suspect that some type of cellular system is in the works for an extender replacement. Solar powered and IP fed it could easily replace the extenders. As for 700MHz penetrating better into buildings, don't Chippies drive cars ;) Their current VHF extender setup has limitations that wouldn't disappear by going up in frequency. We are studing RF propagation at the moment and I know that VHF has a 20% edge over UHF.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
CHP has responsibility to protect State property (including inside office buildings, both State-owned and leased) and investigate crimes on State property. Officers also have to go into facilities like jails, command centers, and hospitals.

That 20% edge that VHF has over UHF is in free space propagation. VHF does not have the penetration into many construction types that UHF (both 450 and 700/800) has.
 

tomasG

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I wanted to do a little research before replying and now that I have all I can suggest is that according to those somewhat in the loop, 700MHz is not a done deal.

State buildings and facilities are already covered by 1) in-house UHF systems, and 2) regional UHF repeaters. The old State Police frequencies represent a portion of those and remain active. State Parks and hospitals are on 800MHz with some on VHF. CHP's stated mission is traffic related and only where no other state law enforcement service is in place do they do crime investigation - like DMV offices. Even then DMV has their own peace officers. I have heard a call for a CHP unit to go to DMV, but his car is parked right outside and I don't see that the distance and brick building are a problem.

It doesn't make sense to me, a rookie, that CHP would leave VHF, CALCORD, CLEMARS and NALEMARS for 700MHz extenders. The Johnson portables are triband, so they would not be losing VHF. But a cash-strapped state swapping out VHF extenders that work while adding more low band repeaters doesn't make fiscal sense. The only reason I could see switching the extenders to 700MHz is perhaps P25 and a "smart" extender that can tell when multiple units are on-scene and one tells the others to shutup.

Time will tell and this really is just conversation for me at this point. I AM surprised to learn that the CB whips on 60-80 foot light poles were for WWV. Those must have been way over-kill but would have been awesome 1/2 wave low band receive antennas. Now with GPS and stuff I guess light polces got really smart. But those antennas aren't on every corner...
 

K6CDO

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I wanted to do a little research before replying and now that I have all I can suggest is that according to those somewhat in the loop, 700MHz is not a done deal.

State buildings and facilities are already covered by 1) in-house UHF systems, and 2) regional UHF repeaters. The old State Police frequencies represent a portion of those and remain active. State Parks and hospitals are on 800MHz with some on VHF. CHP's stated mission is traffic related and only where no other state law enforcement service is in place do they do crime investigation - like DMV offices. Even then DMV has their own peace officers. I have heard a call for a CHP unit to go to DMV, but his car is parked right outside and I don't see that the distance and brick building are a problem.

It doesn't make sense to me, a rookie, that CHP would leave VHF, CALCORD, CLEMARS and NALEMARS for 700MHz extenders. The Johnson portables are triband, so they would not be losing VHF. But a cash-strapped state swapping out VHF extenders that work while adding more low band repeaters doesn't make fiscal sense. The only reason I could see switching the extenders to 700MHz is perhaps P25 and a "smart" extender that can tell when multiple units are on-scene and one tells the others to shutup.

Time will tell and this really is just conversation for me at this point. I AM surprised to learn that the CB whips on 60-80 foot light poles were for WWV. Those must have been way over-kill but would have been awesome 1/2 wave low band receive antennas. Now with GPS and stuff I guess light polces got really smart. But those antennas aren't on every corner...
Conversationally, as a two-decade veteran of State service in a public safety communications capacity, may I suggest that you do some more research into the missions and systems of the California Highway Patrol. I'd start here. You also might look at CHP's State Security Division and Protective Services Division pages found here.

Also, take a peak at the CHP presentation on their radio system modernization, found at http://www.chp.ca.gov/pdf/CHPERS_pres.pdf

I'm sure that both the procurement officials at the State and the E.F. Johnson Company will be surprised to learn that the EFJ 5100-ES handheld and 5300-ES mobile radios are Triband (VHF-UHF-700/800). CHP has purchased and received thousands of the handhelds. CalTrans has ordered around 1,000 handhelds and mobiles to replace all of their radios in District 11 (which operates on the radio system I manage). Parks has a number of handhelds and mobiles in service, and I have three of the radios in my office.

Not a 150 MHz or 450 MHz channel to be found.

Have a good one.
 

tomasG

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I don't have a job yet, so I don't have extra taxes to pay. But it strikes me as odd that California and the federal government keep coming up with new ways to tax the citizens to make up for their fiscal mismanagement. People in record numbers in California are unemployed, but let's add a new new $600 million in taxes?

Leaving the snarky comments aside, the primary role of CHP is defined in PC 830.2:

Code:
The following persons are peace officers whose authority extends to any place in the state:

(a)Any member of the Department of the California Highway Patrol including those members designated under subdivision (a) of Section 2250.1 of the Vehicle Code, provided that the primary duty of the peace officer is the enforcement of any law relating to the use or operation of vehicles upon the highways, or laws pertaining to the provision of police services for the protection of state officers, state properties, and the occupants of state properties, or both, as set forth in the Vehicle Code and Government Code.
Again, we'll all get to wait and see. Switching extenders to 700MHz means losing CLEMARS, NLEMARS, and CALCORD. The primary duty of a CHP officer is traffic and their badge even says "Traffic Officer" on it. The State Security Division (SSD) uses 460.375, 460.450, 453.825, 453.850, 460.0875, 460.2125, and 460.3375 statewide. LAPD regularly uses 460.375 to access CHP. Protective Services Division (PSD) is tasked with protection of state buildings and employees. They don't have extenders in their shoes :) and that is my point of speculation as to why a switch to 700MHz for traffic patrol units that for all intents and purposes are not directly tasked with SSD or PSD duties. The purpose of the short-range extender is for the traffic cop talking back on low band. Maybe the portables will get a talkgroup on the existing 800MHz statewide mix of trunked / conventional systems operated by CALTRANS, CMARS, and State Parks.

I was clearly misinformed about the E.F. Johnson portable but will suggest that given the frequencies needed should have been the triband model.
 

cousinkix1953

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Again, we'll all get to wait and see. Switching extenders to 700MHz means losing CLEMARS, NLEMARS, and CALCORD. The primary duty of a CHP officer is traffic and their badge even says "Traffic Officer" on it. The State Security Division (SSD) uses 460.375, 460.450, 453.825, 453.850, 460.0875, 460.2125, and 460.3375 statewide. LAPD regularly uses 460.375 to access CHP. Protective Services Division (PSD) is tasked with protection of state buildings and employees. They don't have extenders in their shoes :) and that is my point of speculation as to why a switch to 700MHz for traffic patrol units that for all intents and purposes are not directly tasked with SSD or PSD duties. The purpose of the short-range extender is for the traffic cop talking back on low band. Maybe the portables will get a talkgroup on the existing 800MHz statewide mix of trunked / conventional systems operated by CALTRANS, CMARS, and State Parks.

I was clearly misinformed about the E.F. Johnson portable but will suggest that given the frequencies needed should have been the triband model.
Not up north. The San Jose CHP office simulcasts it's 42.50 Ruby repeater on 453.825 mhz. Anybody with two scanners can listen to their traffic in stereo. Those UHF repeaters used to be the old state police channels; but not since the merger with the CHP a few years ago...
 

tomasG

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Sometimes they simulcast here on 460.375 but it sounds more like they forgot to flip a switch when it happens. When I get to listen to LAPD and a chase it is almost comical that they cannot directly talk to one another. There's like a 2 minute lag from LAPD to when CHP repeats it. I heard one chase where CHP pulled up to LAPD, LAPD gave them one of their portables, and CHP setup spikes. It makes me wonder because if LAPD can talk to CHP on 460.375, and CHP can patch a low band channel to 460.375, why the confusion? 460.375 is programmed into the LAPD radios (from the list I've seen.) I go to school down by the beach and have heard Los Angeles County patch to CHP or the other way around. But they can talk.

Time will tell. I'm just happy to hear the CHP areas now coming in repeated! Not Newhall yet and South L.A. still sounds terrible. Bakersfield and Ft. Tejon come in well.
 

jrholm

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tomas CHP's badges haven't read "traffic officer" in almost 20 years. Since absorbing the state police they have become responsible for much more, although traffic does remain their primary focus.
 

tomasG

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That shows you how long it has been since I looked, but I don't think it's been 20 years. My dad is now a Sergeant and his has a number and it says Sergeant. But he has another one in a drawer that says Traffic Officer.
 
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