Speeding in Gwinnett County

[CapStar362]

okay this is funny now

 

[procopper7005]

I've read what you posted, and while I agree it's case law, and makes an argument for pacing as evidence, it does NOT make it a viable option for prosecution, nor does it make it explicably legal.

It very carefully leaves the door open for the use of it, but sets it up for closure when a clever enough defense attorney gets a hold of it.

For example, pacing has to be based on science. If it's not, it can't be used as formal evidence, only heresay.

Since pacing would have to be science, those that use it, would have to be able to describe every step in scientific terms. How they begin a pacing sequence, how the evidence is collected, and how the integrity of the evidence is maintained.

With all due respect to your arguement, I highly doubt anywhere in the State of Georgia they are spending time in academy, or even in a traffic enforcement course, on the "science" behind pacing.

What we know as pacing, is based on mathematical formulas, and I know from my academy, and the academy experience of many others around the country, that there is no time spent learning these mathematical formulas.

Therefore, if an officer were to use the technique as their SOLE evidence, they would be at loss, with a case thrown out because they would not be able to explain in scientific terms how they reached their conclusion on speed of a vehicle.

Further, the case law you pointed out gives the defense just as much ammo. It points out that in order to conduct pacing, vehicle speedometers must be calibrated. And it makes clear in the case at hand that the vehicle was "known to be calibrated."

This would mean that police agencies would have to provide proof of calibration on every single vehicle in their fleet that is ever involved in the use of pacing.

Again, I admitted before I don't know what is done in Georgia, but I know from the places I've worked, we don't have that information to provide on demand, because aside from overwhelming fact that calibration does not regularly occur with agency vehicles, neither of the methods that are employed can actually be proven to create a "calibrated" speedometer.

I would be willing to bet that nearly 80% of all public safety agencies could not produce that information, including agencies in Georgia. Furthermore, ANSI, or the American National Standards Institute allows all car manufacturers to produce vehicles for sale and use on public roadways with speedometers that have an error factor of up to 20%, including police issued vehicles.

This link provides the location of the five documents that point this out. Unfortunately they are not free. If you want to purchase them to see for yourself, I fully support you in that venture:

ANSI Search Results

And let's consider the speedometer all it's own, before we even get into reading it or "pacing" it. Any type of altering of the vehicle can produce widely different results of what the speedometer reads.

This link explains what tires can do to the reading a speedometer provides:

HowStuffWorks "Speedometer Calibration"

So, in regards to your case law, I appreciate that you have produced something that at least references pacing and the legality it possesses, but this particular example is technical at best and has not met a full test of it's meaning, making it very "gray" at best.

My suggestion would be to look up what "Judicial Notice" is, and understand that while you have cited a case, this case doesn't meet that standard.

Now for the rest of your post, I didn't say anything about pacing "certifications." If that's what you thought I was saying, my apologies, that's not what I was speaking about.

What I was referencing was that if an agency had enough cases thrown out on bad evidence, they could be looking at their certification as a police agency revoked.

Again, that process may fall under a different procedure in Georgia, and if that's the case so be it, but I do know that any agency that has a consistent pattern of bad cases will receive intervention of some sort, and in most of the cases I've read about, it's been that the department was either taken over by state/county authorities, or their certification to hire and employ certified peace officers for the purposes of enforcement action is taken away. In either case, the agency as it once was, would be no longer.

If you want an example of what I am talking about, look over at the intervention by the State of New Jersey in Camden, NJ that took place in 2002. It wasn't over traffic enforcement, but it was over bad cases and a few other problems.

And if what you say about the Georgia judicial review board is true, then you have the potential for jurists to run rogue without regard for the laws they are to uphold.

Review boards are suppose to have the ability to censure a judge if they have proof or have found the judge has acted in bad faith, or has accepted bad case law repeatedly. This is a way to prevent further damage to the justice system they (the review board) are expected to protect.

Sir, do you see departments in GA being taken over by the feds? Do you see traffic court judges being thrown off the bench over their rulings? Do you see police departments being disbanded?
Ive prosecuted thousands of traffic cases in more than one GA court, I know the case law, in fact you can say I'm an expert on GA traffic law, Ive even lectured on it.
Ive posted the valid standing case law which EVERY GA traffic court must follow as a matter of law. I don't know how any clearer I can get.

In your post you say "Again, I admitted before I don't know what is done in Georgia". Which is evident.

There is no law requiring a police cars speedometer be calibrated, and there is no permit required to pace a vehicle, in GA.

If you don't like the case law in GA don't blame me, I'm just stating law.
I don't see officers losing their certification, departments being taken over by the feds, or judges being fired for following a ruling from the GA supreme court.

 

[N8IAA]

Maybe, just maybe...It might be the difference the Pacific Ocean air makes in the left-coasters:roll: Just wondering FreeOperator, why this is such a burr under your saddle? It has to do with the law in Jawga, not in Washington state.
Larry

 

[35delivery]

Our Department uses digital dash cam video for our “science” evidence in “pacing” cases. At the bottom of the image, the date and time, along with a real time display of the police vehicle’s speedometer is recorded. The traffic stop, the officer’s and violator’s voice is also recorded.

 

[procopper7005]

Glad you mentioned the speed on the dash cam. Ive seen judges rule to exclude that speed because the GPS in the camera is not a DPS approved speed detection device. But all the officer has to do is testify how fast he was driving. I had this happen in a felony fleeing an eluding case where the vehicles radar was not working and we had speed displayed on the camera.
The judge ruled the speed reading displayed on the camera was inadmissible but the officers testimony was not and we got a conviction. Which further proves my point that pacing alone IS completely admissible in court in GA.

 

[nunyax]

Getting back to Gwinnett...

While scanning Monday night from Monroe around 20:00, on state-band car-to-car 154.905 I heard a couple of units working together to catch speeders around Hwy. 78 (not sure exactly where, just heard 78 mentioned.) No unit ids, just stuff like "almost had one at 79", "81, 81 coming at ya" etc. I was thinking they might have been around Loganville for me to hear them. Looks like they were only stopping ones going 80+.

Eventually around 21:30 they were commenting that it was dying off there and one mentioned going to 316 and Hurricane Trail and that he had been told of a lot of speeding there between Hwy. 29 and the airport. The other wondered which as better there, laser or radar, and if he could set up the same there as where he currently was. They decided to head up there.

As I was driving home from work on 316 at about 22:15, what did I see at 316 and Cedars Rd (facing Hurricane Trail) but a Gwinnett County Sherriff's Impala! I checked the archives after I got home and heard where they had been setting up at about that time.

Driving through on Tuesday night at about the same time I again saw a sheriff's Impala on 316 in front of the airport (between Hi Hope/Hurricane Shoals and Cedars.)

 

[procopper7005]

While scanning Monday night from Monroe around 20:00, on state-band car-to-car 154.905 I heard a couple of units working together to catch speeders around Hwy. 78 (not sure exactly where, just heard 78 mentioned.) No unit ids, just stuff like "almost had one at 79", "81, 81 coming at ya" etc. I was thinking they might have been around Loganville for me to hear them. Looks like they were only stopping ones going 80+.

Eventually around 21:30 they were commenting that it was dying off there and one mentioned going to 316 and Hurricane Trail and that he had been told of a lot of speeding there between Hwy. 29 and the airport. The other wondered which as better there, laser or radar, and if he could set up the same there as where he currently was. They decided to head up there.

As I was driving home from work on 316 at about 22:15, what did I see at 316 and Cedars Rd (facing Hurricane Trail) but a Gwinnett County Sherriff's Impala! I checked the archives after I got home and heard where they had been setting up at about that time.

Driving through on Tuesday night at about the same time I again saw a sheriff's Impala on 316 in front of the airport (between Hi Hope/Hurricane Shoals and Cedars.)

GCSO still has their permits from what I understand. Although the freq you posted is often used by GSP and MCCD.
Even if GCSO or any agency didnt have a speed detection permit, one GSP trooper could run the laser or radar (they dont require a permit by law) and call out to other local units who actually stop the cars and write the citations and the trooper would be listed as a witness on the citation.
In many rural counties in GA this is very common where 1 or 2 troopers will team up with a few local deputies or officers and do a speed enforcement detail where only one trooper is actually operating the speed detection device. Ive actually participated in several of these myself.
But who knows, you were listening and not me.

 

[nunyax]

GCSO still has their permits from what I understand. Although the freq you posted is often used by GSP and MCCD.
Even if GCSO or any agency didnt have a speed detection permit, one GSP trooper could run the laser or radar (they dont require a permit by law) and call out to other local units who actually stop the cars and write the citations and the trooper would be listed as a witness on the citation.
In many rural counties in GA this is very common where 1 or 2 troopers will team up with a few local deputies or officers and do a speed enforcement detail where only one trooper is actually operating the speed detection device. Ive actually participated in several of these myself.
But who knows, you were listening and not me.

Definitely GCSO and GCPD activity on 154.905. I switched to my other car that has a radio and heard lots of activity in Gwinnett. Some was very close judging by my Yaesu's stingy S-meter. I don't know why I didn't have that freq in before. Guess I was just happy with their "other" VHF frequencies. Didn't see the SO on 316 tonight and didn't hear them running enforcement on the radio.

Here's a link to a trimmed audio file of some of the radio traffic: link

 

[Confuzzled]

I think they have bigger fish to fry if you've been following the missing narcotics case. They might want to hold off on the speed traps and secure their own office.

 

[cr2]

Actually its MCCD (Motor Carrier Compliance Division) which is just a division of DPS just like GSP is just a division of DPS. They do care about you and have full power and authority to do enforce any traffic or criminal law.

When they do, i'll let you know.

You are talking about a technicality not backed by evidence. How else to put this.. They can but don't care. Yes, they do not care. It is not their duty description nor priority

 

[kc4wai]

I've noticed the GCSO cruisers on 316 between Riverside and Sugarloaf, and on GA20 near I-85...I'm sure they are in many other places.

Most of the activity heard on 154.905 is in fact Lawrenceville PD. Some of it might be GCSO, but I think only the inmate transport units use VHF. (Hmm, guess that fancy ENCRYPTED 800 system isn't all it's cracked up to be...)

I have heard that some Gwinnett PD officers have VHF in their cruisers, but I don't think they use 154.905 (still pretty certain that's Lawrenceville). Rumors of other freqs have circulated, but I have been unable to confirm them.

 

[Ensnared]

In the past, I've noticed the word "certified" near the speedometer in some law enforcement vehicles. It has been some time since I've seen one,but I would appreciate any insight.

 

[N8IAA]

I've noticed the GCSO cruisers on 316 between Riverside and Sugarloaf, and on GA20 near I-85...I'm sure they are in many other places.

Most of the activity heard on 154.905 is in fact Lawrenceville PD. Some of it might be GCSO, but I think only the inmate transport units use VHF. (Hmm, guess that fancy ENCRYPTED 800 system isn't all it's cracked up to be...)

I have heard that some Gwinnett PD officers have VHF in their cruisers, but I don't think they use 154.905 (still pretty certain that's Lawrenceville). Rumors of other freqs have circulated, but I have been unable to confirm them.

The GCPD does use the state band, as well as other vhf frequencies. Trust me, they do use them for car-2-car conversations I've certainly monitored a few just in my immediate area.
Larry

 

[procopper7005]

The GCPD does use the state band, as well as other vhf frequencies. Trust me, they do use them for car-2-car conversations I've certainly monitored a few just in my immediate area.
Larry

GCPD doesn't install VHF radios in their patrol cars for the most part...most are officers installed.
GCSO does install VHF in almost all of theirs because state band is how to gain access to jails statewide when transporting prisoners.

 

[procopper7005]

In the past, I've noticed the word "certified" near the speedometer in some law enforcement vehicles. It has been some time since I've seen one,but I would appreciate any insight.

GA law doesn't even mention this and there is no requirement for it. It just means the factory certifies the speed to a more precise degree than the normal car.

 

[Ensnared]

When I was going to school, I detailed Texas DPS automobiles. The Trooper told me that this designation helped them in court when they paced with automobiles. I was making a comparison to Texas since I have never traveled through GA. I thought there might be some overlap in the two states as in "Police Package."

 

[Murraylangston]

GCPD doesn't install VHF radios in their patrol cars for the most part...most are officers installed.

This is interesting. Is GCPD licensed for the VHF frequencies they are using ?

 

[procopper7005]

This is interesting. Is GCPD licensed for the VHF frequencies they are using ?

Yes GCPD is licensed on several VHF freq's including state band car to car.

Here is an article on how Gwinnett SO is exempt from this dispute...they still have their speed detection permits. Gwinnett sheriff, police agencies use loophole to catch speeders  | ajc.com

Basically one sheriff's deputy will team up with a few city officers and run the laser while the city officers make the stops and issue the citations. If the case goes to court both the city officer and the deputy go to court.

By the way, every single city police officer and all county police officers are also all sworn as Gwinnett Sheriff's Deputies, this has been a very long practice in Gwinnett County which gives all the city officers countywide jurisdiction.

 

[rmiller818]

By the way, every single city police officer and all county police officers are also all sworn as Gwinnett Sheriff's Deputies, this has been a very long practice in Gwinnett County which gives all the city officers countywide jurisdiction.

So because their department lost its permit, they cannot operate the device, even though they are a sworn Sheriff Deputy? It is department based not qualification based.

 

[Murraylangston]

Yes GCPD is licensed on several VHF freq's including state band car to car.

This I understand but I have never been able to find a license for the freqs that I hear them on. I am talking about the Officer installed modified Yaesu's that I have seen in their patrol cars.