Spotsylvania, VA - buys $19 million public safety system

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rapidcharger

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Move over St. Johns County, FL...
Move over Marin County, CA ...

We have a new winner in the Race To Waste.

I don't have time to calculate the hourly wage the radio system would make today but if you live in "Spotsy", I don't need to tell you something isn't right. Go to the meeting!

Spotsylvania School Board and Board of Supervisors town hall meeting

WHEN: 6 p.m. to 7:15 p.m. Thursday

WHERE: Courtland High School auditorium, 6701 Smith Station Road

DETAILS: Participants may submit a question in advance or at the meeting. To submit a question, go to: spotsylvania.va.us/content/2616/17214.aspx


Tell them to fund the rest of those firefighters positions first then we can talk about toys.
 
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fredva

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Move over St. Johns County, FL...
Move over Marin County, CA ...

We have a new winner in the Race To Waste.

I don't have time to calculate the hourly wage the radio system would make today but if you live in "Spotsy", I don't need to tell you something isn't right. Go to the meeting!

Spotsylvania School Board and Board of Supervisors town hall meeting

WHEN: 6 p.m. to 7:15 p.m. Thursday

WHERE: Courtland High School auditorium, 6701 Smith Station Road

DETAILS: Participants may submit a question in advance or at the meeting. To submit a question, go to: spotsylvania.va.us/content/2616/17214.aspx


Tell them to fund the rest of those firefighters positions first then we can talk about toys.

I hear what you are saying, and I don't like the price tag. However, are you aware that the county has no choice but to retire the current system in a few years?
 

wa8pyr

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And your point is???

He's a troll. Has said the same kind of thing about several similar stories for systems in various locations around the country.
 

Dafe1er

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I agree the price tag is a little out there, but we are talking about a new system that will most likely reach a lot better in the valleys, wooded areas and low points in the county with those nice new towers. I hear all the time the dispatchers checking on units and not getting a hold of them, calling out a unit awareness and a few minutes later they clear it saying they have them by 21 (phone). Just not acceptable to me or them.

What shocks me is this company beat out Motorola and I am willing to bet they are doing it with Moto gear! Love how crap thrown in the air works out.

Now we need to find out about the encryption part. This is key for this area. With other western Counties just switching to the Craptrbo and not having interoperability, Stafford being fully encrypted, Fredericksburg is on voice inversion, will Spotsy do like the rest and buy a over priced system then go silent, or let us keep on enjoying their daily hard work?

Dafe.
 

Dafe1er

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Never mind just found this in their power point they had for this:

Components determined to be required:
• Tower Sites and associated equipment
• Backbone Equipment
• Infrastructure Equipment
• New Radios for public safety
**Sheriff – all encrypted**
• Multi-band, multi-frequency radios for
interoperability
• Fire & Rescue - Water-proof and intrinsically
safe
• Radio System Coverage Testing

THERE GOES ANOTHER ONE!

Anyone wanna buy a HP-1 come later this year?

Dafe.
 

StephenVa

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A big shame they feel like they need to encrypt. I hope someone convinces them to change their mind.
 

fredva

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Never mind just found this in their power point they had for this:

Components determined to be required:
• Tower Sites and associated equipment
• Backbone Equipment
• Infrastructure Equipment
• New Radios for public safety
**Sheriff – all encrypted**
• Multi-band, multi-frequency radios for
interoperability
• Fire & Rescue - Water-proof and intrinsically
safe
• Radio System Coverage Testing

THERE GOES ANOTHER ONE!

Anyone wanna buy a HP-1 come later this year?

Dafe.

How recent is that PowerPoint? The original idea was to encrypt everything, then the sheriff said a couple of months ago that the system was in the planning stage and no decision had been made yet on how much might be encrypted. So whether that PowerPoint is 9 months old or from the past week makes a difference.
 

rapidcharger

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And your point is???

My point is 19 million dollars is incredibly wasteful. It has become clear to Motorola and Harris that there is no limit to what cities will pay, even when the cities small, rural, or don't have the money.

I hear what you are saying, and I don't like the price tag. However, are you aware that the county has no choice but to retire the current system in a few years?

I am in support of replacing radio systems that are aging that aren't getting the job done. 19 million dollars, however, is absurd. You can buy a whole lot of radio system for a rural county like that for a lot less money. Most counties have done exactly that.

He's a troll. Has said the same kind of thing about several similar stories for systems in various locations around the country.
This is a scanner site and if discussing the mass migration to radio systems that are unmonitorable and came at an extremely high price tag is trolling, then I guess that makes me a troll. It would also make one of our local commissioners a troll when he stood up at a meeting and said " $xx million is a lot of money and we have to look at this more carefully." I beg to differ. It's precisely this kind of corruption that's ruining our hobby and bankrupting our cities. It must be nice to live in a place where you can still hear something on your scanner. You clearly don't know the feeling to turn on the scanner and hear nothing. (And pay through the nose to do it)

I agree the price tag is a little out there, but we are talking about a new system that will most likely reach a lot better in the valleys, wooded areas and low points in the county with those nice new towers. I hear all the time the dispatchers checking on units and not getting a hold of them, calling out a unit awareness and a few minutes later they clear it saying they have them by 21 (phone). Just not acceptable to me or them.)))

For 19 million, it had better reach into the valleys! The county is very rural, mostly agricultural, only a very small part of it is on the outskirts of a city, and it's a small city at that.

I live in one of the most hilly and RF unfriendly large cities in the world and yesterday I drove 45 miles out from a downtown DMR repeater, talking the whole way on nothing but a 4 watt portable and had rock solid coverage the whole while driving in a car. I don't know what the repeater owner paid for that system but I'm sure it was a lot less than $19million.
Once again, I have nothing against getting new radio systems, even digital ones but there is a radio system that can be had for less than $19 million that is more than adequate.


(((What shocks me is this company beat out Motorola and I am willing to bet they are doing it with Moto gear! Love how crap thrown in the air works out. )))

Yeah, evidently they didn't ask for references. :lol:

Now we need to find out about the encryption part. This is key for this area. With other western Counties just switching to the Craptrbo and not having interoperability, Stafford being fully encrypted, Fredericksburg is on voice inversion, will Spotsy do like the rest and buy a over priced system then go silent, or let us keep on enjoying their daily hard work?

Dafe.

That's just it. Digital is a pandora's box for the scanner hobby. Set aside encryption for a minute, have you read some of the posts where people are having a great deal of trouble monitoring these new systems?

A big shame they feel like they need to encrypt. I hope someone convinces them to change their mind.

That's why I posted the details about the meeting. The meeting is today.
You probably wont have much luck persuading the lay person that encryption is a bad thing but you most certainly can point out that that is the most expensive radio system per capita in the entire continent, possibly the entire world and they will probably be pretty upset. And tell them that additional first responders were promised but not yet hired.
Often times when counties want to spend wastefully on radio systems they end up having to raise sales tax. If the residents of the county knew that the communications needs of the county could be met for a lot less money I'm sure they'd much rather do that instead of pay more in taxes. That said, I doubt anyone from that county are even reading this. There's not that many people living there, the county seat only has a population of 4,000 people.
 
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fredva

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That said, I doubt anyone from that county are even reading this. There's not that many people living there, the county seat only has a population of 4,000 people.

There are several residents of the county (myself included) and surrounding areas who have been discussing and sharing information about the proposed system for the last several months in these forums, including the Virginia forum. It's obvious from your posts that you aren't very familiar with the county. For example, it has a population of over 120,000, which dwarfs the population of the small city that you mentioned.
 

rapidcharger

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There are several residents of the county (myself included) and surrounding areas who have been discussing and sharing information about the proposed system for the last several months in these forums, including the Virginia forum. It's obvious from your posts that you aren't very familiar with the county. For example, it has a population of over 120,000, which dwarfs the population of the small city that you mentioned.

I understand that. That comes out to $158 per capita which is the most expensive radio system I've read about. Ever.

Since you seem so intimately familiar with the county, can you tell me how many firefighters and EMS it employs? I already know how many police are employed, that would be 219, which I admit is way more than I expected.
Let's say for example, that the fire and EMS also employs 219.

That comes at a cost of
$43,379.00 per first responder.
More than a patrol car.

If that was amortized over 15 years, it would still come to
$2,892.00 per first responder, per year....

Enough for each first responder to buy their own MotoTRBO XPR 8400 Repeater each and every year!

Since you are a resident of the county and I am not, can you tell me how, as a taxpayer of that county, it feels to be taken for such a ride?

And what's your plan for when the scanner goes quiet? What are you going to do then?
 

rlh2005

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Let's say for example, that the fire and EMS also employs 219.

That comes at a cost of
$43,379.00 per first responder.
More than a patrol car.

If that was amortized over 15 years, it would still come to
$2,892.00 per first responder, per year....

Enough for each first responder to buy their own MotoTRBO XPR 8400 Repeater each and every year!

The system isn't just for first responders. It for all of Spotsylvania County radio needs -- garbage trucks, parks & rec, code compliance, zoning, water/sewer department, and school system. Each school bus will have a radio and each school should have multiple portables. 150 new radio just for school buses. New radios for all of the Sheriff's office (219 by your numbers) and fire/rescue department (12 companies * avg/est 8 apparatus per company = 96 + command/hq staff (say 20). That's north of 490 radios.

Here are the full details in the Board of Supervisor meeting package: BOS meeting agenda item with contract details.

Like other has said, the county isn't small. 120,000+ residents in about 400sq mi. With the east coast's main artery (I-95) and other critical paths (CSX mainline) running through it.

Yes, it would be nice if system was less costly. The $19m number includes all new equipment, refurb'ing some existing equipment, development/build-out, tower construction (to include permitting, site development), and years 2-10 of maintenance/support.

And the heavy use of encryption is troubling. In major storm events, it's nice to be able to listen in. Heck, during the Derecho this past summer, my wife and I went out to help clear roads in the immediate area because we heard that fire/rescue was overloaded and there were lots of stuck motorists due to downed trees blocking both ends of main roads -- to include a deputy transporting a prisoner.
 
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rapidcharger

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And the heavy use of encryption is troubling.

Did you find it troubling enough to attend the meeting?

Are you telling me there's going to be p25 digital radios in all the school buses and garbage trucks? This just keeps getting better and better. Even with 500 units, it's not going to drastically alter my math.

You seem more upset with me for some reason. I never called the county small. I'm not the one encrypting the radios. I can understand why you'd be upset but don't take it out on me. I posted the date and time of the meeting so you can take it out on the folks who made the decision to do all this.
 

rlh2005

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Did you find it troubling enough to attend the meeting?

Are you telling me there's going to be p25 digital radios in all the school buses and garbage trucks? This just keeps getting better and better. Even with 500 units, it's not going to drastically alter my math.

You seem more upset with me for some reason...

I'm not upset with you. Nothing in my previous post is meant to convey that. I'm just providing information since some of your info/statements appear to be inaccurate or mischaracterizations. Read the support docs in the meeting agenda item I included in my previous post.

As for the Board of Supervisor's and School Board townhall meeting, I wasn't able to attend due to work obligations. That said, I think there are better ways than the townhall's format. For example, speaking during public comments of regular board meetings and personal communications with your Supervisor.

And, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm just a taxpayer.
 
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wa8pyr

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The system isn't just for first responders. It for all of Spotsylvania County radio needs -- garbage trucks, parks & rec, code compliance, zoning, water/sewer department, and school system. Each school bus will have a radio and each school should have multiple portables. 150 new radio just for school buses. New radios for all of the Sheriff's office (219 by your numbers) and fire/rescue department (12 companies * avg/est 8 apparatus per company = 96 + command/hq staff (say 20). That's north of 490 radios.

Folks are missing one very important point here.

Infrastructure for systems like this typically lasts around 20 years. If you assume $15 million as the total price for the infrastructure alone (not including subscriber devices), that comes out to $1.5 million / year over 10 years, or $750,000 / year over 20 years. That's a pretty cheap price to pay for a solid, reliable, mission-critical grade communications system, manufactured by the best in the business.

Subscriber devices are typically only assumed to last 7-10 years, but systems I manage still have 20-year-old radios in excellent condition providing service every day. The only problems with such old systems and subscriber devices are 1) they're not especially interoperable and 2) technology has passed them by and repair parts aren't available any more.

And "rapidcharger" mentioned something about MotoTRBO. Incredibly huge mistake. I would never place my first responders on such a system; it's designed for non-critical business applications and is nowhere close to public safety grade (as confirmed to me by a Motorola representative). Public safety users in my area who have attempted to use it have come away dissatisfied and eventually switched over to local P25 systems, at a greater overall cost than switching to P25 in the first place.

"Rapidcharger" also seems to find it amusing (or sad) that public service users including garbage trucks and school buses will be using the system. As a public safety professional, I can't think of a much better outcome. Remember, when the "big one" hits, everyone is a first responder. Fire departments might conduct rescues and police provide security and traffic control, but it's the road maintenance folks clearing roads so the fire trucks and police cars can get through; water and sewer folks getting the water going again; the electric department getting the power back on; school and transit buses hauling people to evacuation shelters; garbage trucks hauling away debris; animal control folks taking care of lost or abandoned pets; and so on. Having everyone able to talk to one another is perfect and it makes the job of unified command that much easier.

Maintaining and administering a single system as opposed to a multitude of incompatible systems is also easier and less expensive.

Looking at cost alone when considering a mission-critical application is a very quick way to end up with a product that will likely fail when you need it most. Like the man said, "you get what you pay for."
 
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jim202

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My point is 19 million dollars is incredibly wasteful. It has become clear to Motorola and Harris that there is no limit to what cities will pay, even when the cities small, rural, or don't have the money.

I am in support of replacing radio systems that are aging that aren't getting the job done. 19 million dollars, however, is absurd. You can buy a whole lot of radio system for a rural county like that for a lot less money. Most counties have done exactly that.

I gather from your comments that your in the business of constructing new radio sites and installing the equipment, shelters and towers.

Please explain to the rest of the group here just how much it costs to build each site, including the generator, generator fuel system, grounding system, tower and shelter foundation, cost of building a road into the site, cost of having electrical power and telco facilities installed, cost of a crane to set the shelter on the foundation, the cost of the antennas, cost of the microwave between each site and the cost of a tower crew to install the antenna system.

Now don't forget to include the cost for each mobile radio, the cost to have the old radio removed and the new one installed. Then there is the issue of portable radios, chargers for each of them and spare batteries. I don't know how many mobile radios and portable radios were on the bid, but someone can step up and provide the numbers. Then we can simply multiply the numbers by the cost of each of the radios.

I believe that the old EDACS system only had 3 tower sites. The new system will have 10 tower sites. That is 7 new tower sites and everything that goes with it. Unless my information is bad, I also believe that the equipment shelters the current EDACS radio equipment is in also need to be replaced. Seems time has taken it's toll on the shelters.

Bottom line here is step up to the plate and provide the group the exact cost figures of each item on the bid to allow the rest of us to know if your position of it costing too much is real or your just spouting off.
 
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rapidcharger

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Jim, I will briefly respond on the subject of sites. Why build your own when so many already exist? It's unnecessary to have 100% body worn portable coverage across farm fields. The garbage trucks certainly don't need it. They don't need to be digital for that matter. I live in a county roughly the same size as Spotsylvania except that it has 825,000 people living in it, spread out across the whole county. We have a multimillion dollar encrypted digital trunking system on 800 that our crooked commissioners bought before half of them ended up in Club Fed. But our garbage trucks don't even have radios. And the school buses are on some SMR LTR system.

I'm not saying Spotsylvania county overpaid for what it got. I'm saying the county bought things it didn't need in the first place.

RLH2005, I'm sorry you weren't able to attend the meeting. I think the people of your county should be using every opportunity they can to be heard. Democracy is not a spectator sport.
 
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