St. Joseph's ALS - Seven radios?

[apu]

I was reading the EMS System Review report and they mentioned that "a northern New Jersey ALS unit [...] was required to install seven different radios" along with the picture of a St. Joseph's MICU. (http://www.state.nj.us/health/ems/documents/ems_study_report.pdf p. 44-46)

What seven different radios would they need? VHF Low, VHF High, UHF, 800 MHz. Add in some trunking and P-25 but you can buy radios that do both trunked/P-25 and conventional, right?

Apu

 

[fineshot1]

Not sure you understood that part of the report. The unit in question is dispatched by seven different community dispatch centers. It is necessary to dedicate a radio to a dispatch channel in order to be able to receive all possible dispatch's on each channel. You cannot have a single radio scanning through all seven channels beacuse a dispatch could be missed on another channel in the scan process. That is what that part of the report is critical of.

EDIT: Thanks for posting that report - it has good info.

 

[apu]

You're right: I read it as they needed seven radios to contact all the towns to which they respond, not that they receive dispatches on seven radios.

If what you are describing is happening, I can certainly understand the seven radios. Though I thought every MICU had to have a single regional communications center as its dispatch point. If the St. Joe's unit is dispatched by dispatch center #1, how do centers 2-7 know they aren't available and then who do they call for ALS?

Apu

 

[fineshot1]

Though I thought every MICU had to have a single regional communications center as its dispatch point. If the St. Joe's unit is dispatched by dispatch center #1, how do centers 2-7 know they aren't available and then who do they call for ALS?

Apu

Good point & question. The report goes on to address those two points and makes recomendations to correct those problems and others that have been plaguing nj ems
orgs for a long time now. Hopefully others that are familar with the nj ems will read the report and make some comments on here.

 

[railtrailbiker]

The St. Joe's MICU is dispatched only by Micomm, which is based in Totowa. The seven radios are required to communicate with the municipalites to which the unit might respond to. The St. Joe's medics are carrying only one tone & voice pager, and it can be triggered only by Micomm.

 

[apu]

Thanks, railtrailbiker - I thought MICCOM dispatched them.

Back to the original question, do you happen to know what seven different radios are needed? I can see the need for four different bands (VHF Low, VHF High, UHF & 800 MHz) and even that seems like pushing the envelope to me given the statewide (JEMS/SPEN) and nationwide interop (VTAC/UTAC) channels available.

Apu

 

[railtrailbiker]

Your assumption is that they're using current production model radios. Perhaps they have older radios that were not capable of such wide frequency spreads?

 

[fineshot1]

The pic in the report actually shows 6 radios and 1 uniden scanner. Of the 6 radios in the pic 4 of them are motorola CDM 1250 and 1 is a motorola CDM 750 and the 6th radio is a Kenwood unknown model(i think). What band split each is on I have no idea.

 

[902]

Very common and completely plausible. When I was a paramedic working the radios was more complicated than calculating drip rates. Here's one possibility:

Radio 1 - dispatch radio (always set to the MICU dispatch - anybody besides me remember the MICCOM MODAT radios?)
Radio 2 - general VHF radio (can be set to HEAR, JEMS 3, SPEN 4, I/O, police, fire, squads, etc.)
Radio 3 - Low Band 33 - 39 MHz. (33, 37, 39 MHz channels)
Radio 4 - Low Band 40 - 50 MHz. (42, 44, 45, 46, 47 MHz channels)
Radio 5 - UHF 450 - 470 MHz (453, 460, Med channels)
Radio 6 - UHF 470 - 512 MHz (usually tighter than that, like only 470 - 482 or 500 - 512 MHz)
Radio 7 - 800 MHz (back in the day, only the Passaic and North Hudson units had those)
Radio 8 - Possibly somebody's trunked radio on whatever system.
Radio 9 - MED channel radio with PAC-RT (replaces flakey Micor vintage mobile MEMCOM repeater)
Radio 10 - Possibly another trunked radio with a different manufacture.

The center radio console in some units literally went from the 4WD shifter kob down to the rear passenger seat. The Oddyssey vehicles have custom electrical systems that are works of art.

 

[Alarmguy]

Very common and completely plausible. When I was a paramedic working the radios was more complicated than calculating drip rates. Here's one possibility:

Radio 1 - dispatch radio (always set to the MICU dispatch - anybody besides me remember the MICCOM MODAT radios?)
Radio 2 - general VHF radio (can be set to HEAR, JEMS 3, SPEN 4, I/O, police, fire, squads, etc.)
Radio 3 - Low Band 33 - 39 MHz. (33, 37, 39 MHz channels)
Radio 4 - Low Band 40 - 50 MHz. (42, 44, 45, 46, 47 MHz channels)
Radio 5 - UHF 450 - 470 MHz (453, 460, Med channels)
Radio 6 - UHF 470 - 512 MHz (usually tighter than that, like only 470 - 482 or 500 - 512 MHz)
Radio 7 - 800 MHz (back in the day, only the Passaic and North Hudson units had those)
Radio 8 - Possibly somebody's trunked radio on whatever system.
Radio 9 - MED channel radio with PAC-RT (replaces flakey Micor vintage mobile MEMCOM repeater)
Radio 10 - Possibly another trunked radio with a different manufacture.

The center radio console in some units literally went from the 4WD shifter kob down to the rear passenger seat. The Oddyssey vehicles have custom electrical systems that are works of art.

Old School ALS Unit Motorola Micor/Syntor with modat setup

 

[902]

Old School ALS Unit Motorola Micor/Syntor with modat setup

Sean, you the man! That's exactly what I was talking about!

The top unit looks like a custom microphone switcher card that Henry Brothers had made originally. One of the current North Jersey paramedics' father etched the boards. It's not in the original control head, which was actually a Systems-80 wild card escutcheon with colored buttons. The colored tape corresponds to which radio the one microphone goes to.

There were microphone plug-ins that went to each of the color coded Syntor-X mobiles. The next below that is a Mitrek control head card. It's hard to tell if that was one of the old MICCOM radios. If it is, it's missing the MODAT status/ message control head. Then there's the junky Memcom APCOR repeater (the 120# of iron in the back is not pictured). Then it looks like a Syntor-X Systems-90 head, then a Touch Code DTMF encoder, then another Syntor-X. I think this is more recent than what was used from the MODAT days (I think they stopped using it in 1987), but still pretty typical of ALS units until the Syntor X-9000 and Spectra radios started to make their way into the units. I'd say 1988 or 1989.

These R&R's (removals and remounts) were a real pain to work on, especially when the bifurcated connectors lost their spring tension on the back or something vibrated out. These things probably made it into three vehicles or more.

 

[902]

I love the pictures in the series! Is this your gallery? Unfortunately nobody I know in them.

Check out the long lowband fiberglass covered antenna on top of that Passaic-Clifton ALS truck: http://www.pbase.com/healthiest/image/37224780 Was that for Garfield's lowband?

 

[Alarmguy]

Nope not my gallery I came across it one time by accident.

 

[902]

Nope not my gallery I came across it one time by accident.

Thanks for posting it. I have some old friends who (used to???) work in those "projects" (man, I'm old calling paramedic units 'projects' - from the three digit medic days).

 

[kenisned]

Thanks for posting it. I have some old friends who (used to???) work in those "projects" (man, I'm old calling paramedic units 'projects' - from the three digit medic days).

Did you read the report that started this thread? As an old time medic, i'd be curious to get your take on it (if you'd care to comment?)?

Little off topic, but I think others would be interested also.

Thanks

 

[902]

Did you read the report that started this thread? As an old time medic, i'd be curious to get your take on it (if you'd care to comment?)?

Little off topic, but I think others would be interested also.

Thanks

I read part of it. I'm no longer in NJ, but still visit frequently and have family here. So I try to stay at least informed for those times I do get back home.

For communications, let me just put something quickly out there and then I will comment more after I give the document a more through read. I believe that there is much fragmentation, but NJ is ahead of much of the country in terms of large systems, like the NJSP trunked network. Still, even that lacks the capacity to carry municipal traffic. Where you have a large number of municipalities, each with singular resources, you have the demand for frequencies in whatever band is available. This is the environment within much of NJ, and, lacking a common platform, the MICU programs must meet the demands of each of the jurisdictions within their certificates of need. That usually means the big rack o' radios. There are a lot of people who believe that the Public Safety Spectrum Trust, along with the 700 MHz D block licensee will develop a nationwide IP-based radio system that may look something like EV-DO (the technology has not been finalized) and that eventually radio will be an application layer riding on the 700 MHz network. If that's the case, communication with various agencies would be like trying to Skype someone. The downside is that monitoring as a hobby will fade away, unless an agency cares to webcast.

I'll reserve comment on things like regionalization until I finish reading the document. I will say that I'm not sure that I agree with their quantification methodology. They are asking for subjective analysis which is really unqualified opinion.

More to follow.

 

[apu]

Radio 1 - dispatch radio (always set to the MICU dispatch - anybody besides me remember the MICCOM MODAT radios?)
Radio 2 - general VHF radio (can be set to HEAR, JEMS 3, SPEN 4, I/O, police, fire, squads, etc.)
Radio 3 - Low Band 33 - 39 MHz. (33, 37, 39 MHz channels)
Radio 4 - Low Band 40 - 50 MHz. (42, 44, 45, 46, 47 MHz channels)
Radio 5 - UHF 450 - 470 MHz (453, 460, Med channels)
Radio 6 - UHF 470 - 512 MHz (usually tighter than that, like only 470 - 482 or 500 - 512 MHz)
Radio 7 - 800 MHz (back in the day, only the Passaic and North Hudson units had those)
Radio 8 - Possibly somebody's trunked radio on whatever system.
Radio 9 - MED channel radio with PAC-RT (replaces flakey Micor vintage mobile MEMCOM repeater)
Radio 10 - Possibly another trunked radio with a different manufacture.

Thanks, 902.

Obviously they combine some of those since St. Joe's only mentioned seven radios -- 450-512 can be done in one radio these days, etc.

How many projects still use the UHF Med channels and the PAC-RTs (or the like) for medical control? I don't listen to those channels too often (with the exception of Med 9 & Med 10) but the Atlantic Ambulance MICU use cell phones and I hear REMCS patching channel five to the doctor.

From the few times I've drive Atlantic or MONOC trucks they only have 2-3 mobile radios so seven radios definitely stuck out when I read the report.

Apu

 

[SCPD]

St. Clare's units use cellphone's as well. I have only seen 3 radio's on a Clare's (55,56,and 57) unit. 2 CDM series and a Syntor for the CenCom radio.

http://www.kb9ukd.com/digital/

 

[mredding]

Since this is ultimately about the EMS study, I figured I'd comment. A similar study was done about 20 years ago at the taxpayers' expense. None of the thirty or so recommendations that came out of the study were ever implemented. So, the State of New Jersey decided to have the nice taxpayers pay for another study. Most of the recommendations are strikingly similar to those made in the 80's. As to whether they will be acted upon this time, you may draw your own conclusions.

 

[902]

Did you read the report that started this thread? As an old time medic, i'd be curious to get your take on it (if you'd care to comment?)?

Little off topic, but I think others would be interested also.

Thanks

Well, I read it now. This is a very complicated and politically charged issue and I see not much has changed in the 11 years I've been out of town.

I spent about three hours coming up with something very long winded that would be pretty controversial to many here. I almost posted it, but a lot of people would criticize the length and not even look at the content. I'll spare everyone, but welcome PMs and an off-line email or IM discussion if anyone wants.

In general, I don't disagree with much, but there are points that I strongly disagree with. I particularly agree with Recommendation 9 on HR issues. I may have stayed in EMS if I could have transferred out of an urban environment and had a career in which I was able to remain on par with police or paid fire. As it is now, if I still were a NJ paramedic (which I no longer am), I would not be able to raise a family without working a full-time job and working per diem for several other places. I wouldn't be home most of the time, and many NJ paramedics still live like that. I'm not sure if a NJ EMT could do any of that working days for a squad or working for a private service for less-than-adult wages.

Only time will tell whether this is another study that goes on a shelf, or if something is going to happen as a result. I do agree that a change is needed and someone must make the changes to go forward. Perhaps Gov. Corzine, being fully congnizant of the pre-hospital emergency medical care system, at least in South Jersey, will do something to assure forward motion, and maybe not. There are so many players in this pot, where any one of a dozen or so lobbies can emerge as strong-arming a stalemate.

We'll see.

In general, change is good.

What do you guys think? You're all still there.