STARS SYSTEM

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ThePhotoGuy

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I have always wondered concerning STARS and local counties. It seems kind of rare with STARS compared to other state statewide systems (Maryland, North Carolina, etc.) with the lack of local counties on the system. I know most states push/urge local jurisdictions to "join" their system but with STARS it looks like only 1 jurisdiction with talkgroups on STARS. Did the State of Virginia not want counties to join STARS?
 

Ghstwolf62

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Ah yes. I know what you mean. I have STARS systems set up regionally and sometimes I'll pick up some site in BFE that has a local control channel. Its strange to see some site I've never heard of pop up until I look at the CC being displayed and see 152.7125 or 161.9375 which are 221 and 222 which are local.

That usually happens when I forget to switch back to the local region from a more distant one. I have north region for when I go out Lexington way but sometimes I'll come back home and forget to turn it back to local. Same for the Roanoke area.
 

Ghstwolf62

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I have always wondered concerning STARS and local counties. It seems kind of rare with STARS compared to other state statewide systems (Maryland, North Carolina, etc.) with the lack of local counties on the system. I know most states push/urge local jurisdictions to "join" their system but with STARS it looks like only 1 jurisdiction with talkgroups on STARS. Did the State of Virginia not want counties to join STARS?

Take this with a big huge "IF"

From what I understand and remember it was a system designed solely for state agencies and no they didn't want local anything on it other than mutual aid channels and then only through their interop gateways.

They had a name for them but I don't remember what it was exactly.

No one was allowed to have their radios on it but state agencies so Roanoke for instance couldn't use dual band radios with one band on STARS and the other on their P25 system.

The only way on was through these gateways where the STARS controller would patch whoever onto a MA TG.

I've heard them doing that with Roanoke city pd before operating on one of the MA 6 channels for some type of joint operation they ran for a while down there. Seemed like several months.

I've noticed out here several agencies like Bedford, and Charlotteville patched SIRS into their TRS instead. I don't know if either has ever used a patch to STARS though. It will be interesting to see if the SIRS patch stays on the new Bedford P25 TRS
 

fredva

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I understand that the state wanted to stay on VHF. That likely limited the capacity of the system to the point that there was little or no room for local jurisdictions.
 

N4FTN

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The gateway you are referencing was called COMMLINK...... originally intended to operationalize one per jurisdiction for interop. I don't know where the state is in that evolution or whether it has moved on to some newer solution........
 

Ghstwolf62

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The gateway you are referencing was called COMMLINK...... originally intended to operationalize one per jurisdiction for interop. I don't know where the state is in that evolution or whether it has moved on to some newer solution........

Thanks, that's it. Seems like mostly having local radios in their units is still the solution but not every unit has them. They had a call a couple of hours ago out here on the freeway and the state unit had to call their dispatch to find out why multiple county units were rolling code on the freeway.

Maybe VSP can upgrade to APX 8 series Motorolas or Harris Unity radios which would allow them to operate on everything.

The relay of info often loses much in the translation. The critical call on the freeway over county radios was much more informative as to nature and such than what county told VSP dispatch.

By the time VSP dispatch relayed back to the unit it was basically made out to be a no biggie thing when it actually was with three fire companies, a rescue squad, and two SO units. Needless to say the VSP unit didn't bother to respond as he didn't think he needed to.
 

fredva

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Thanks, that's it. Seems like mostly having local radios in their units is still the solution but not every unit has them. They had a call a couple of hours ago out here on the freeway and the state unit had to call their dispatch to find out why multiple county units were rolling code on the freeway.

Maybe VSP can upgrade to APX 8 series Motorolas or Harris Unity radios which would allow them to operate on everything.

The relay of info often loses much in the translation. The critical call on the freeway over county radios was much more informative as to nature and such than what county told VSP dispatch.

By the time VSP dispatch relayed back to the unit it was basically made out to be a no biggie thing when it actually was with three fire companies, a rescue squad, and two SO units. Needless to say the VSP unit didn't bother to respond as he didn't think he needed to.

When I got my first scanner while living in another state, there was a lot more direct interoperability than there is now. Not only was there a common channel that different law enforcement agencies could use to talk officer-to-officer, but the fire departments and ambulance services could use that channel also. Nowadays a big load is put on dispatchers to pass information from one agency to another, often through phone calls.
 

kb4cvn

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STARS 'Bull Mountain' site

Yesterday morning I was south of Danville on US-29, and stopped into the North Carolina Welcome Center (Eden, NC).

I had been listing to STARS, specifically VSP Division 6 (Salem HQ), with the current site I was listening to being BULL MOUNTAIN (https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=17533).

Being curious, I decided to scroll through the FCC MENU function on my radio (toolbox program utility loading during programming). Nothing exciting, and everything as expected:

WACN…$bee00
SYSTEM ID…$19e
RF SUB-SITE ID…$02
SITE ID…$13
SITE NAC…$197
CONTROL CHANNEL FREQUENCY…152.7725 MHz

SIGNAL STRENGTH… -58 dBm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was a few miles below Danville on US-29. There wasn’t any conceivable way I could possibly see a signal strength from Bull Mountain in Patrick County were I was parked at a blistering -58 dBm at that distance !!!

The signal I was listening to had to be coming from a tower within a half of a mile at the most from my location. While driving out of the Welcome Center / Rest Area’s parking lot, to the north I noticed a 200 foot tower. (See photo). Could this actuallybe the STARS site I was hearing, and not Patrick County???


Comments anyone…
 
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N4FTN

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I have long been disappointed in the lack of interop implementation on the STARS system. VSP continues to use the STARS system in a very similar operational manner to the conventional VHF systems of the past. There are apparently no protocols taught, practiced or utilized by the road troopers to utilize the system beyond the single talk group on dispatch and the TAC TG's associated with each Division dispatch TG. And in my listening experience, they use the TAC TG's in a very limited way.

I've lived in Division 1, 5 and 6 since the implementation of STARS and have listened to exactly the same protocols in all. For example, I once heard a pursuit on an interstate where one trooper was in pursuit. They were approaching the Division line with a neighboring Division.... the pursuing trooper advised dispatch to let the upcoming Division know of the pursuit. The two dispatchers remained on the telephone to relay location and related information to troopers in both Divisions as the pursuit continued. Ultimately the pursuing trooper was joined by a trooper from the next division; were side by side on the interstate pursuing the now relatively slow moving vehicle. The two troopers could see each other in their cars side-by-side but could not talk to one another.

No protocols in place for these type spur of the moment TAC operations to go to common TG's; dispatch to patch TG's together; Troopers to utilize portables on simplex frequencies; etc..... nothing! This is within the agency and among member state agencies...... certainly extends to lack of protocols for interops with local agencies, etc........

Half a billion $$$$$$ for STARS and still using the system like they did in the late 70's. Very disappointing from this citizen's point of view.......

Unfortunately this is not limited to Virginia but prevalent across public safety where decision makers have a limited communications awareness. The technical capabilities of the systems mostly far outweigh the use of those capabilities. This is demonstrated in almost every major event where interop activities are slow to develop, and based solely on the technical awareness of the major players.........

Government can do better.... I hope, will do better, as more enlightened policy makers ascend their agency hierarchy's.........
 

Ghstwolf62

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When I got my first scanner while living in another state, there was a lot more direct interoperability than there is now. Not only was there a common channel that different law enforcement agencies could use to talk officer-to-officer, but the fire departments and ambulance services could use that channel also. Nowadays a big load is put on dispatchers to pass information from one agency to another, often through phone calls.

Being from California they had CLEMARS for years and more importantly used it as a matter of course. Don't know if they still do but they did. Everyone would hop on it for an incident. Usually vehicle and foot pursuits.

They also had a fire MA channel that could be used statewide. I believe it was 154.280. They also had medical statewide channels such as HEARS.

Out here I've been shocked by the lack of it. SIRS in some places but not everywhere it seems. Several years ago I heard an FBI unit calling repeatedly on SIRS for Alleghany county. No answer. I called into their dispatch center to tell them FBI was calling over and over again.

Their response?
"Oh we don't keep that radio on"

Seriously?

Plus I don't know what the training requirements are out here but I've been absolutely shocked with how horrible the dispatchers are out here. It boggles the mind.

After living for thirty years in LA and hearing real dispatchers do the job including relaying rapidly and accurately seeing what is here is frankly a complete joke.

If you doubt me take one example. An emergency alarm on a radio went off and there was dead silence. A Sgt. asked if dispatch had heard the alarm and the reply was "Yeah" When the Sgt. asked who it was the dispatcher replied "How in the hell am I supposed to know"

I can tell you of lots of incidents that would blow your mind. They don't even know standard phonetic alphabet either common or military for crying out loud.

I think its dispatchers that have a lot to do with how well things work. They have to know how to do it though to make it work and you have to teach the officers how to make use of interoperability capabilities.
 

Ghstwolf62

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I have long been disappointed in the lack of interop implementation on the STARS system. VSP continues to use the STARS system in a very similar operational manner to the conventional VHF systems of the past. There are apparently no protocols taught, practiced or utilized by the road troopers to utilize the system beyond the single talk group on dispatch and the TAC TG's associated with each Division dispatch TG. And in my listening experience, they use the TAC TG's in a very limited way.

I've lived in Division 1, 5 and 6 since the implementation of STARS and have listened to exactly the same protocols in all. For example, I once heard a pursuit on an interstate where one trooper was in pursuit. They were approaching the Division line with a neighboring Division.... the pursuing trooper advised dispatch to let the upcoming Division know of the pursuit. The two dispatchers remained on the telephone to relay location and related information to troopers in both Divisions as the pursuit continued. Ultimately the pursuing trooper was joined by a trooper from the next division; were side by side on the interstate pursuing the now relatively slow moving vehicle. The two troopers could see each other in their cars side-by-side but could not talk to one another.

No protocols in place for these type spur of the moment TAC operations to go to common TG's; dispatch to patch TG's together; Troopers to utilize portables on simplex frequencies; etc..... nothing! This is within the agency and among member state agencies...... certainly extends to lack of protocols for interops with local agencies, etc........

Half a billion $$$$$$ for STARS and still using the system like they did in the late 70's. Very disappointing from this citizen's point of view.......

Unfortunately this is not limited to Virginia but prevalent across public safety where decision makers have a limited communications awareness. The technical capabilities of the systems mostly far outweigh the use of those capabilities. This is demonstrated in almost every major event where interop activities are slow to develop, and based solely on the technical awareness of the major players.........

Government can do better.... I hope, will do better, as more enlightened policy makers ascend their agency hierarchy's.........

I agree completely.
 

W4UVV

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For what it's worth....

Yesterday morning I was south of Danville on US-29, and stopped into the North Carolina Welcome Center (Eden, NC).

I had been listing to STARS, specifically VSP Division 6 (Salem HQ), with the current site I was listening to being BULL MOUNTAIN (https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=17533).

Being curious, I decided to scroll through the FCC MENU function on my radio (toolbox program utility loading during programming). Nothing exciting, and everything as expected:

WACN…$bee00
SYSTEM ID…$19e
RF SUB-SITE ID…$02
SITE ID…$13
SITE NAC…$197
CONTROL CHANNEL FREQUENCY…152.7725 MHz

SIGNAL STRENGTH… -58 dBm !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was a few miles below Danville on US-29. There wasn’t any conceivable way I could possibly see a signal strength from Bull Mountain in Patrick County were I was parked at a blistering -58 dBm at that distance !!!

The signal I was listening to had to be coming from a tower within a half of a mile at the most from my location. While driving out of the Welcome Center / Rest Area’s parking lot, to the north I noticed a 200 foot tower. (See photo). Could this actuallybe the STARS site I was hearing, and not Patrick County???


Comments anyone…

Last July using my 996XT and 536 installed mobile with all VSP Divs/freqs/tgs programed by Div, I drove from Prince George via I85/I40 to visit my son who lives in Mooresville, NC about 20 miles north of Charlotte. I was able to hear the South Hill STARS site comms solid on I85 South in NC until about 30 miles north of Raleigh/Durham. No other STARS sites were heard driving east/west. When I left Mooresville on a clear Sunday morning driving north on I77 I started hearing the Bull Mtn. STARS site with solid copy about 25 miles south of the VA. state line. The Bull Mtn. site also had excellent inland coverage.

In my opinion, you definitely heard the Bull Mtn. STARS site. It "ruled" much of my Div 6 monitoring and although I also heard other Div 6 and Div 4 STARS sites, it was my dominant monitoring STAR site for quite a distance. We hams well know what signal coverage advantages a mountaintop location offers.

John
W4UVV
 

W4UVV

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Me too...I agree with you and N4FTN 100%+

Being from California they had CLEMARS for years and more importantly used it as a matter of course. Don't know if they still do but they did. Everyone would hop on it for an incident. Usually vehicle and foot pursuits.

They also had a fire MA channel that could be used statewide. I believe it was 154.280. They also had medical statewide channels such as HEARS.

Out here I've been shocked by the lack of it. SIRS in some places but not everywhere it seems. Several years ago I heard an FBI unit calling repeatedly on SIRS for Alleghany county. No answer. I called into their dispatch center to tell them FBI was calling over and over again.

Their response?
"Oh we don't keep that radio on"

Seriously?

Plus I don't know what the training requirements are out here but I've been absolutely shocked with how horrible the dispatchers are out here. It boggles the mind.

After living for thirty years in LA and hearing real dispatchers do the job including relaying rapidly and accurately seeing what is here is frankly a complete joke.

If you doubt me take one example. An emergency alarm on a radio went off and there was dead silence. A Sgt. asked if dispatch had heard the alarm and the reply was "Yeah" When the Sgt. asked who it was the dispatcher replied "How in the hell am I supposed to know"

I can tell you of lots of incidents that would blow your mind. They don't even know standard phonetic alphabet either common or military for crying out loud.

I think its dispatchers that have a lot to do with how well things work. They have to know how to do it though to make it work and you have to teach the officers how to make use of interoperability capabilities.

------------------------

First as most of us RR Virginia members are taxpayers who have paid and continue to pay for either installations and/or maintenance of this trunked statewide radio system, we have just as much an invested indirect oversight interest via our comments in the STARS radio system as does the Virginia General Assembly and the STARS management.

We now are entering "sacred cow" territory regarding commenting on statewide STARS VSP and other STARS and non-STARS user's comms. My finishing comment will be first. In my opinion, listening to STARS comms regularly for the last 15+ years, I concluded on balance, although acceptable for basic comms, and having a few additional new features, it missed a lot of interop comms potential. From that perspective it has been somewhat disappointing for what it could have been. Conversely, it was the latest state of this art trs technology and the STARS did have its' share of technical problems. Maybe I expected too much when I would see most VSP talkgroups in Division 1 rarely, if every used, with the understanding some talkgroups are for emergency or special event use situations only. Having said that I look at most silent MCALL1, LEINOP1, MUTUAL 1 and COMLINC 1 talkgroups. They are silent because relatively few non-STARS users in VSP Division 1. But I think general the same is true for all VSP divisions statewide.

During the initial phases of STARS sites installations began and completed non-VSP STARS users began to appear. Certain state entities decided there was an immediate need for a $3-4,000 STARS radio for its' authorized STARS users. Some examples were: State Gaming Commission(defunct...DACS subsequently was issued their previously scheduled "for delivery" radios....close but no winner), DJJ (defunct also) and Fire Training Programs (currently active..somewhere in VA...maybe voice comms via cellphones only were not acceptable); and last but not least...(Dept. of Military Justice..after 10 years... still waiting for a decision on that one). The state STARS plan, in part, was to continue support of VSP analog comms and when a site was completed switch over to P25 P1 STARS comms.
One really good STARS feature enhancement done was allowing the Tazewell Co. SO and Grundy, PD to use the STARS system as a cost effective alternative for a separate P25 P1 trs There are a number of other smaller VA cities and counties which possibly could be STARS LE system users.

I also have heard pursuit calls from county SOs needing VSP and other counties help. The last example I recall was a Sussex Co. Deputy was chasing a speeding vehicle headed west on Rt. 40 (very dangerous two lane road popular with deer for browsing road salt) at 90-100 mph. The Surry Co. dispatcher attempted to contact a VSP unit on SIRS..no luck. She had to call the VSP Div 5 dispatcher and have her ask for any available unit's assistance all of which subsequently were out of position. Dinwiddie Co. SO had been also notified and gave chase with by now a VSP unit was in position. The car finally wrecked about 45 minutes later.....almost at the Nottoway Co, the next adjoining county.

After that chase I remember thinking at the time if Sussex Co.SO had COMLINC 5 installed, at least 10 minutes of phone calling would have been avoided. The very few COMLINC 1 comms I have heard...sorry to say at least half sounded awful poor audio quality...over/under modulated audio. My federal civil service job required me to be transferred to Ft. Lee, VA from Ft. Hood, TX, in 1974, over 43 years ago. At that time the TX county I lived in, 43 years ago, was one of a three adjacent counties LE interop user only repeater on a 154 mhz. frequency which I now forget.

VSP has approximately 175 tac and/or tac related frequencies for statewide 7divisions use. Some are dedicated for Drug Intervention Surveillance and other special purpose uses, but there are a few VSP division each STARS LE talkgroups and non-STARS interop comms for selected for city/county interop capable(i.e, for Div 1 only, MCALL 1, INTEROP 1, MUTUAL 1 and COMLINC !) talkgroups, available but currently in Div 1some are rarely if ever used. Perhaps they could have been used if the target SO or PD had the talkgroup(s) capability.

Again, the answer always bottom lines out to not having the monies. I recommend STARS management to begin making the case to the VA General Assembly to take a monetary percentage portion from some unnecessary "feel good" social engineering budget projects, a percentage of VSP confiscated drug bust assets/and from unnecessary budgeted "fact finding" political junkets. Concurrently the STARS management needs to create a timeline schedule for COMLINC installations for selected city/county LE installations statewide to be completed by the end of 2027.

Time will tell what, if any, more significant COMLINC installations in ALL VSP Divisions for STARS non-STARS LE users change.

A passing comment regarding SIRS. Unfortunately, for much of urban Virginia LE licensed radio users SIRS is not used or possibly even responded to by a few urban PDs. SIRS definitely desired and appreciated more in the rural sections of the state. This is not a new subject. For example, Richmond City years ago was only one of a number of city PDs and urban located county SOs who did not monitor SIRS. I don't about now.

I remember when Hopewell PD was operating P25 P1 on the old defunct federal dual vhf/uhf (400/800 mhz.) Motorloa trs along with Ft. Lee, etc., Hopewell PD refused to also monitor SIRS. Their solution was simple. Just flip a switch and bye bye 39.54 mhz. signals. Problem solved. Their "justification" for not monitoring or responding to SIRS comms was something similar to "SIRS comms additionally were disruptive when attempting to have comms with their own radio system's users." Anyway, Prince George Co.,Petersburg and Colonial Heights PDs were close by. But Hopewell PD today with its' "new" 800 mhz. trs does monitor SIRS. But it is a via a separate 39.54 mhz. T/R radio.

The STARS statewide trs today is what it is to each monitor.


John
W4UVV
 

KG4KHQ

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Tower in Photo

The tower in the photo at the rest area on US 29 is the Pelham site on the NC VIPER system.
 

cobraDIHO

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Interoperability down here in far SWVA seems to be somewhat better than other parts of the state as most counties have the ability to patch over to several of VSP's talkgroups via RIOS. Coverage seems to be quite adequate and it is far superior to what any 800MHz TRS could offer even if the latter had more sites. Yes, it could stand to be improved somewhat, but Virginia took the smart route budget and coverage-wise with STARS.
 

fredva

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Interoperability down here in far SWVA seems to be somewhat better than other parts of the state as most counties have the ability to patch over to several of VSP's talkgroups via RIOS. Coverage seems to be quite adequate and it is far superior to what any 800MHz TRS could offer even if the latter had more sites. Yes, it could stand to be improved somewhat, but Virginia took the smart route budget and coverage-wise with STARS.

SW VA still uses a lot of conventional radio systems, according to the database. I think people may be more likely to question the inability to share STARS with local agencies when a local county spends $8 million, $10 million, or $12 million to upgrade its radio system. From the taxpayer's perspective, it doesn't seem to be efficient to pay for both the state's system and for your local county's system. Whether those local counties all needed a trunking system is another question.

I won't argue with you about the coverage that VHF offers.
 

Ghstwolf62

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I maybe should clarify my comments about the dispatchers and the incident. This was NOT STARS or any of their users. It was the local county dispatcher.

I agree with Mike's last post. They are trying to upgrade to a P25 simulcast system out here right now. Supposedly its now going to happen in two years or so. They turned down a regional system that was already being built by a neighboring county because they wanted their own. They've also decided to not spend the money to have adequate coverage and instead are once again going at it half a$$ed.

Not a surprise. This is the same guy who came up with the KW crap that never worked and had to be abandoned. Same guy who tries to hide everything going on and never put stuff out on the radio even when it means his own units don't know what's going on.

It would be much better if they paid a bit and got on STARS. This is a rural area and doesn't need fifty talk groups. Then again if they'd use Motorola or Harris they might actually have something that works.

John, I understand what you mean. Its too bad it didn't materialize. I wonder if local intransigence had anything to do with it. Its a great system if people would get their head out and make proper use of it.

I'd think if local jurisdictions got dual band or all band radios they'd be allowed to have the MA type TGs at least in their radios and simply switching over when needed would solve a lot of issues. Even being able to monitor main TGs like Salem 2 for instance even if they couldn't transmit would allow a great deal more information and interop to be available to areas. Heck just having a scanner in their units would do wonders.

I've also never heard the nationwide interop channels used out here, at least by anyone out here that is. I've heard them in use once by an outside agency who set them up for temp use in the area but once they left so did the use.

Only Botetourt uses one and not exactly intended but as a MA freq for their fire dept.

That leaves everyone asking what so and so is responding to all the time which is a waste and that is of course if local has actually put whatever it is out on the radio like they should.
 
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