stl-metro 396xt newbie

[Kimberson]

Hi. I'm a bit timid when it comes to posting, after reading through many RR posts people here seem exceptionally friendly...hence this (first post).

I purchased a 396xt after the last round of severe weather and a weekend not long ago where there were (according to the local news) 17 shootings between 1030pm-1:30am not far from where my sis lives (in the city). I reside between counties (unincorporated). From (here) the RR site (confusion starts), I think I live in "precinct 2" or central county. Less than a 45 second walk from my home is "monarch fire house #3". A large county (contracted I think) "Maryland Heights" is a few miles north, and another contracted jurisdiction (wildwood) is a bit south/west. To confuse things further, across the street is "Chesterfield" which is considered West County (like wildwood) BUT a five minute walk east and i'm in Creve Coeur (Also west county). Town and Country, Frontenac, Ladue, Ballwin, Ellisville, Manchester, Des Peres, Huntleigh, Kirkwood...some 2nd, some 3rd ring suburbs but WHOA! Through the lens of infrasructure, juristdiction and PS...confusion in spades!

I live between Hwy 141 and Fee-Fee (or Hwy 270) on Olive Street. I was warned of the learning curve, esp. having zero prior experience with radio. This is the reason I didn't go with the hp-1...I wanted to learn the process.

The scanner-computer connection wasn't a problem (computers can be a pain but a familiar one!). Have RR prem. subscription, arc xt and (recently) d/l'd freescan.

I don't want to hijack anything, the consensus round here pointed to posting in ones local forum for questions/help. I've read the kinda easier to read manual and the wikis here many times. On occasion, i'll hear something and the p25 sign will pop up- it's like xmas! Then...well, post Christmas blues.

I ran into a stranger at the mom n pop electronic store last week- he happened to be from the Ozarks, his job/expertise was setting up/fixing/planning the MOSWIN (and other MO) network. Very nice guy- he explained to me (in short) the (big) issues specific to MO and radio-communications. Group A wants an all in-1 (moswin?) trunked solution...but understands little of the physical limits such a system is subject to. His example: In flatland (Illinois) such a system (was assuming a similar one to what MOSWIN is) Group A wants (can imagine the politics involved) would work...but- here in MO, with the topography found in the Ozarks...my impression was that a gazillion towers would be needed, at ridiculous cost...where many existing systems (would still) work...We talked a bit more. He mentioned something that seemed important regarding reception/bands in STL- That PD/PS trunked systems were cast in the 700, not 800mhz range. Correct me if i'm messing this up!

Aside from the my main issue, being...I can't understand the DMA structure (on paper maybe, as soon as im holding the scanner, no way)...Things seem to be automatic per RR database D/L, but between conventional systems having trunked groups/sites and trunked systems (edacs/p25/LTR) each needing specific criteria (analog/trunked...does p25 nac do something here? fireout HOW?) data/control/alter/<---multiples with "See....(can't read, doesn't scroll!) and the doom "s0"...quick keys 0-9...how does one get to "S1"? It appears different systems exist separately, (program system X/Y/Z) but everything is "S0"...my gut says..."something no good...conventional system scanning then trunked only, but zero sound....

actually...if I program 1 system (conventional) in the 14X.000-15X.000 range, I can get many "dispatch" signals.

Thoroughly confused with "fleetmaps". Concept makes sense...but "enter fleetmap" followed by many blank spaces...so many blank spaces!

DCS/NAC or neither or both?

Obviously, I'm not asking for answers to all this stuff! It to give a general impression of where i'm (not) at!

I learn (and teach) best through apprenticeship.

I've tried the (k)eep it simple (s)tupid method, a most qualified success. Knowing that a mile out north-east-south-west of my geo-loc, the systems being used are a mash of 14x.000/44X.000/700/800 each using some proprietary edac/p25/ltr "conventional but trunked" "trunking"...is very frustrating- especially when (for example) last week on my street at 2AM in the morning (its a not thru street, mostly retired ppl) I counted over 30 LE cars go into my street in less then 1 hour...with some really large black trucks /w trailers (plus a loud speaker blasting unintelligible speech up the street)...it was kinda scary...and here I am feeling a bit foolish/worthless, the reason I got the scanner was for reasons such as that...and all I could do was...well...nothing. I've never seen anything like it on this street.

I apologize for the lengthy missive.

If anyone knows how Stl Metro Districts work+the City, or if there's a secret to it all, i'd be most thankful.

PD//Fire Dept/safety related stuff is what's most important for me. Also, my sister lives near Tower Grove Park in South City...any related channels/systems would, well...either help or worry me. Either way if you've read down this far thanks...! I hope as my knowledge of radio grows I can give back to the community.

(thanks again)

-Andy K.

 

[trainerman]

I don't live in your area, but good luck to whomever replies. That certainly made my head spin reading that.

 

[lynxrufus]

the consensus round here pointed to posting in ones local forum for questions/help...

If you're going to talk about Tower Grove Park, then this is the right forum.

If anyone knows how Stl Metro Districts work+the City, or if there's a secret to it all, i'd be most thankful.

This is the page I made to help myself understand fire dispatching.
Fire Departments, Radio Scanning Frequencies, Fires and Firefighting
At the very top of the page is a link to a map of fire districts. Note that there are dispatch centers that dispatch several districts. There's also info on the city FD. I hope that helps. Police is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Welcome to RR and good luck.

 

[wtp]

k.i.s.s.

with that much happening i think i would have gone with close call.
it would only get the REAL local stuff (a couple of hundred feet)
my county is on a rebanded repeater and i keep a folder just for the inputs (1/4 to 1/2 mile then)
good luck.

 

[Kimberson]

thanks...a lot!

thanks everyone for the encouragement, info and welcome. After having taken a week long break to figure out a bunch of new gear (for pro-audio/music recording) and some light construction (dry wall) some progress has been made. The learning process has similarities to the technical side of mastering (audio). The brain takes in a new language, terms and concepts (radio technicals, lingo and processing it all into cohesive concept). The "walk away/come back" aha! phenomenon, I call it. One of the forums (uniden xt I think) a poster gave great advice- load up a a few basic systems and mess around with 'em...then dig into the easier read manual.

Many problems are as simple as having a poor antenna. Using a terrible duck, I took the 396xt /w me when visiting my sister last week. It was like I had the batteries in the wrong way!

I see myself in the future investing $ in specialized antennas, but I have enough now to order better.

Doing research and reading reviews it looks like the best choices are:

Condor (30$) and the Mobile wide/band AIO (spectra) by the same company.

I noticed many of the great reviews were from ppl on the w-coast. My question is if there's a better option (for MO/STL at around the 150-200$ price point?

Thanks so much!

(Next goal...figuring out the full-signal non-data channels near my loc, fire-tones and those unpleasant very loud (not tones, full of harmonics...can tell it's data<-is that the sound of encryption?)

-thanks again!

 

[nick1427d]

Hi. I'm a bit timid when it comes to posting, after reading through many RR posts people here seem exceptionally friendly...hence this (first post).

I purchased a 396xt after the last round of severe weather and a weekend not long ago where there were (according to the local news) 17 shootings between 1030pm-1:30am not far from where my sis lives (in the city). I reside between counties (unincorporated). From (here) the RR site (confusion starts), I think I live in "precinct 2" or central county. Less than a 45 second walk from my home is "monarch fire house #3". A large county (contracted I think) "Maryland Heights" is a few miles north, and another contracted jurisdiction (wildwood) is a bit south/west. To confuse things further, across the street is "Chesterfield" which is considered West County (like wildwood) BUT a five minute walk east and i'm in Creve Coeur (Also west county). Town and Country, Frontenac, Ladue, Ballwin, Ellisville, Manchester, Des Peres, Huntleigh, Kirkwood...some 2nd, some 3rd ring suburbs but WHOA! Through the lens of infrasructure, juristdiction and PS...confusion in spades!

Love it or hate it this is the public safety dynamic in this entire area.

The scanner-computer connection wasn't a problem (computers can be a pain but a familiar one!). Have RR prem. subscription, arc xt and (recently) d/l'd freescan.

This will help you tremendously with programming once you get the hang of it especially how things around here change so much

I don't want to hijack anything, the consensus round here pointed to posting in ones local forum for questions/help. I've read the kinda easier to read manual and the wikis here many times. On occasion, i'll hear something and the p25 sign will pop up- it's like xmas! Then...well, post Christmas blues.

What system are you attempting to monitor (StL City?)

I ran into a stranger at the mom n pop electronic store last week- he happened to be from the Ozarks, his job/expertise was setting up/fixing/planning the MOSWIN (and other MO) network. Very nice guy- he explained to me (in short) the (big) issues specific to MO and radio-communications. Group A wants an all in-1 (moswin?) trunked solution...but understands little of the physical limits such a system is subject to. His example: In flatland (Illinois) such a system (was assuming a similar one to what MOSWIN is) Group A wants (can imagine the politics involved) would work...but- here in MO, with the topography found in the Ozarks...my impression was that a gazillion towers would be needed, at ridiculous cost...where many existing systems (would still) work...We talked a bit more. He mentioned something that seemed important regarding reception/bands in STL- That PD/PS trunked systems were cast in the 700, not 800mhz range. Correct me if i'm messing this up!

MOSWIN is vhf and Starcom(IL) is 700/800mhz which means IMO he is comparing apples to oranges. The city system is 700/800 so is the new st. louis county system that a lot of agencies including fire and county PD will be going to once it's online (if you're trying to monitor this you won't hear much if anything right now). 700/800 is simply the bandplan. 700mhz on the radios is used a lot for interop or conventional personalities (off the towers).

Aside from the my main issue, being...I can't understand the DMA structure (on paper maybe, as soon as im holding the scanner, no way)...Things seem to be automatic per RR database D/L, but between conventional systems having trunked groups/sites and trunked systems (edacs/p25/LTR) each needing specific criteria (analog/trunked...does p25 nac do something here? fireout HOW?) data/control/alter/<---multiples with "See....(can't read, doesn't scroll!) and the doom "s0"...quick keys 0-9...how does one get to "S1"? It appears different systems exist separately, (program system X/Y/Z) but everything is "S0"...my gut says..."something no good...conventional system scanning then trunked only, but zero sound....

actually...if I program 1 system (conventional) in the 14X.000-15X.000 range, I can get many "dispatch" signals.

Thoroughly confused with "fleetmaps". Concept makes sense...but "enter fleetmap" followed by many blank spaces...so many blank spaces!

DCS/NAC or neither or both?

Obviously, I'm not asking for answers to all this stuff! It to give a general impression of where i'm (not) at!

I learn (and teach) best through apprenticeship.

I've tried the (k)eep it simple (s)tupid method, a most qualified success. Knowing that a mile out north-east-south-west of my geo-loc, the systems being used are a mash of 14x.000/44X.000/700/800 each using some proprietary edac/p25/ltr "conventional but trunked" "trunking"...is very frustrating- especially when (for example) last week on my street at 2AM in the morning (its a not thru street, mostly retired ppl) I counted over 30 LE cars go into my street in less then 1 hour...with some really large black trucks /w trailers (plus a loud speaker blasting unintelligible speech up the street)...it was kinda scary...and here I am feeling a bit foolish/worthless, the reason I got the scanner was for reasons such as that...and all I could do was...well...nothing. I've never seen anything like it on this street.

And breath

If anyone knows how Stl Metro Districts work+the City, or if there's a secret to it all, i'd be most thankful.

PD//Fire Dept/safety related stuff is what's most important for me. Also, my sister lives near Tower Grove Park in South City...any related channels/systems would, well...either help or worry me. Either way if you've read down this far thanks...! I hope as my knowledge of radio grows I can give back to the community.

Use the links the previous sent, check the wikis on here on occasion and take notes, on computer or paper whatever of what you hear while monitoring, problems you're experiencing and ask questions preferably one at a time and similar in topic if a few ?s. We will help best we can. Also the database on here is usual up to date considering it's submitted by users on here so use it.

In the future try and be as specific as possible with your setup at the time of the problem including the system and/or agency you're trying to monitor.

If I was you I'd go slow with worrying about programming everything in our area cause it is changing everyday. I would not worry about fire tone outs cause they might be changing as well. Heck as new as you are to this you probably don't know that there used to be a south county fire alarm, all those agencies are dispatched by central county now btw.

You're going to find that most of your issues with monitoring city's P25 is your distance from it. I'm less than 10 miles from a city tower line of sight and it sucks for me.

 

[nick1427d]

thanks everyone for the encouragement, info and welcome. After having taken a week long break to figure out a bunch of new gear (for pro-audio/music recording) and some light construction (dry wall) some progress has been made. The learning process has similarities to the technical side of mastering (audio). The brain takes in a new language, terms and concepts (radio technicals, lingo and processing it all into cohesive concept). The "walk away/come back" aha! phenomenon, I call it. One of the forums (uniden xt I think) a poster gave great advice- load up a a few basic systems and mess around with 'em...then dig into the easier read manual.

Many problems are as simple as having a poor antenna. Using a terrible duck, I took the 396xt /w me when visiting my sister last week. It was like I had the batteries in the wrong way!

I see myself in the future investing $ in specialized antennas, but I have enough now to order better.

Doing research and reading reviews it looks like the best choices are:

Condor (30$) and the Mobile wide/band AIO (spectra) by the same company.

I noticed many of the great reviews were from ppl on the w-coast. My question is if there's a better option (for MO/STL at around the 150-200$ price point?

Thanks so much!

(Next goal...figuring out the full-signal non-data channels near my loc, fire-tones and those unpleasant very loud (not tones, full of harmonics...can tell it's data<-is that the sound of encryption?)

-thanks again!

You're going to find with this hobby that you're going to "need" multiple radios with multiple antennas. It never ends but I never can get enough of it either.

If you're going to use the 396 for a mixture of frequencies I would go with something wideband and get it outside. If you're wanting a portable antenna so you can travel with it then the duck maybe the best bet. If you're going to use it for strictly 800 P25 then buy an antenna specifically for that bandwidth.

 

[Kimberson]

I just received an Austra Spectra Antenna via SMasters. In one of reviews, a customer mentioned changing the whip length for better VHF (low) reception. For now best reception of the "standard" 40/150/400/800 bands are the priority.

My question:are there any tweaks or equipment additions (some kind of amplifier/filter/cable etc) which can be made to improve its performance, specific to monitoring STL (city and county) PD/FD, utilities? I have decent soldering skills. Also, I've had no luck with hearing any of the "fun" frequencies, like a fast food place. I used to deliver pizza as a teen, can't imagine what the talk would be.

TY

 

[nick1427d]

I just received an Austra Spectra Antenna via SMasters. In one of reviews, a customer mentioned changing the whip length for better VHF (low) reception. For now best reception of the "standard" 40/150/400/800 bands are the priority.

I can't imagine you getting a whole lot of use on VHF low in the stl area. It's mostly VHF High to 800mhz around here as far as public safety, utilities, weather, ham etc. I would leave the spectra alone for now. Are you using this on a car or as a base?

My question:are there any tweaks or equipment additions (some kind of amplifier/filter/cable etc) which can be made to improve its performance, specific to monitoring STL (city and county) PD/FD, utilities?

I can understand the desire to monitor everything and anything with one scanner and one antenna but this is difficult to do unless what you are monitoring is close to you. There's no magical piece of equipment that fixes/improves everything. Filters will help on VHF high and 800 (at least for me they did, but this was mostly just fixing interference issues with paging towers.) Amps placed on coax where the antenna isn't elevated enough will only amplify "noise", you may pick up a few other things but will probably do more harm then good. Good quality coax (not Rg58) will always help no matter what frequency you're trying to monitor especially if your coax run is rather long. Also there is loss in signal for every adapter, connector, etc.

Please provide more detail in your setup and again what are you trying to monitor. If "everything" is literally your desire, then the spectra as it is for mobile, and a discone for at home.

 

[Kimberson]

Antennas/Etc

Ty for the response!

I was having trouble with the spectra, turns out the mag-mount was the culprit. I opened the "sealed" (bottom part) of the MM- lo and behold, not a bad soldering job, but none! Main contact wire was fully in insulation- had to (simple fix) expose the lead and solder it to the contact point.

The antenna is fine- I ordered both from the same place. The MM itself is good quality (very strong magnet)...was a bit surprised the wiring "job" made it past any cursory inspection. That said, after attaching the thing/checking the connection /w a meter, 100% improvement.

I understand your point about not needing VHF L in the area. That part of the antenna (the whip) is a few inches over length for clearing my garage door. My question is how much length can I clip off without losing ability to pick up needed frequencies? (I have no interest in CB and as you mentioned, not much going on in the low VHF bands).

Yes, the spectra will be used for mobile. I plan on purchasing either a 996xt or HP-1 for base, the HP-1 is a bit confusing. I've read many reviews from experienced scanning enthusiasts with opposite opinions. Many of the negative reviews seem to come from a bias based upon prior DIY programming XP. I do like the idea of having more room for info/characters on the display. If the HP-1 has less capable reception, that would be a deal breaker...plus I like the heavy-duty enclosure of the 996xt.

As for base discone antennas any recommendations? The neighborhood I live in would throw a fit, seeing a several foot tall "apparatus" on the condo, despite it being a no-rent/fully paid living space.

Thanks again!

 

[Kimberson]

Sorry, I just noticed your comment regarding coax- "esp RG58". Well, I just looked at the cable, and "RG58 AU" is clearly stamped on the cable. What kind do you recommend?

Ty again

 

[Kimberson]

After a bit of research...

Looks like RG-8X, for the length (9-12') is the best choice (over RG-8U), as diminishing returns would come into play regarding the short length of cable I'd be using for mobile.

I did find specs for RG-8X sized cable which according to the charts, looks to be superior in every way.

Apparently RG-8U/X was or no longer is standardized (milspec) so (?) the designation could potentially be meaningless, per manufacturer.

Any opinions on LMR-240 "flex"/LMR-400 "flex"?

Proprietary tech from "Times Radio Systems"- the "240" flex had very impressive specs- although they were from the companies website, which could be the bees knees for all I (don't) know.

The 400 Flex cable specs were ridiculous (performance).

I haven't a clue if these super-spec'd cables would make a big difference...the numbers if kind of accurate would indicate so.

Any experience, wise words regarding using these "super-cables"?

Ty

 

[nick1427d]

I understand your point about not needing VHF L in the area. That part of the antenna (the whip) is a few inches over length for clearing my garage door. My question is how much length can I clip off without losing ability to pick up needed frequencies? (I have no interest in CB and as you mentioned, not much going on in the low VHF bands).

Do some research regarding cutting lengths/charts with the spectra. If it was a normal vhf-high whip I'd say cut it around 19" (155.100 mhz) for stl area. Since it is considered "wideband" I don't know off hand the proper cutting length.

 

[nick1427d]

Sorry, I just noticed your comment regarding coax- "esp RG58". Well, I just looked at the cable, and "RG58 AU" is clearly stamped on the cable. What kind do you recommend?

Ty again

If your runs are under 100' and if you're using the cable for mobile purposes the RG58 is fine. As the frequency gets higher the losses from coax become worse. I've always used RG58 simply because I cannot justify spending $100 of dollars on coax when what I'm currently monitoring is suiting my needs and I don't have long runs (under 50').

Basically VHF-high RG58 for mobile is fine, you could upgrade to a 240 or LMR-400 if you wanted but you're gonna want something that flexes.

I would direct your coax questions to the coax forum as they know more than I do. One might argue that the price for LMR-400 isn't much more than RG58 and you get better results so you'll have to make that decision.

To answer your question about the discone, I have personally never used one so I can't attest to performance and/or the footprint that place when mounted, nor can I recommend a brand. I've heard some good results came from the radioshack one but I don't know if they still carry it.

 

[shelleys1]

St. Louis County PD's New Radio System...

Love it or hate it this is the public safety dynamic in this entire area.

MOSWIN is vhf and Starcom(IL) is 700/800mhz which means IMO he is comparing apples to oranges. The city system is 700/800 so is the new st. louis county system that a lot of agencies including fire and county PD will be going to once it's online (if you're trying to monitor this you won't hear much if anything right now). 700/800 is simply the bandplan. 700mhz on the radios is used a lot for interop or conventional personalities (off the towers).

You're going to find that most of your issues with monitoring city's P25 is your distance from it. I'm less than 10 miles from a city tower line of sight and it sucks for me.

Nick,
St. Louis County PD's new system will *not* have any 700 freqs. It will be comprised of completely 800 freqs.

Shelley

 

[nick1427d]

Nick,
St. Louis County PD's new system will *not* have any 700 freqs. It will be comprised of completely 800 freqs.

Shelley

Most P25 "800mhz" trunking systems are actually 700/800mhz (764-870 band split). If you look at the details regarding county's new system it includes FCC licensing for 769.xxxx vehicular repeaters and the interop channels for both off system and on include 764.xxx and up frequencies.

We have our radios for new system and 7Tac55 769.74375 one of the nationwide interop channels is programmed in there. We have been told to test this channel in buildings. Mind you that this channel is off system.

The way the radios "talk" to the system may be considered 800mhz but some aspects of all the new systems (county, city, jeffco, st Charles, IL) are comprised of a few 700mhz frequencies.

Shelley,

If you've heard something recent that is changing disregard above but I'm fairly certain the 700mhz tac channels are staying considering city has them as well.

 

[shelleys1]

Nick,

Actually, I know for a fact that County PD will only be using the 800 band. I work with (not for!) County and know exactly what the band plan is for them. County secured many (and I mean MANY!!) different frequencies but not all of them are for St. Louis County PD. I did not ask who they were for - it was not part of my involvement to know. What I do know FOR A FACT is that the frequencies in the 800 band are for County PD, they are not going outside in any way (yes, I know that they can fall into the 700 mhz range, but the frequencies I know are being used are, right now, are only in the 800s) - and the other frequencies which are not in the 800s are going elsewhere.

I was in a meeting this past week and am involved with part of this operation so I can assure you that the above is absolutely what is going on.

Unfortunately, my husband and I will not be here when the new system goes live. We're moving to Austin in either late December or the first of January, 2014. The new system may not go live until possibly a year from now...a firm date has not been established as of yet. If I hear a firm date before we move I'll post it here in Radio Reference but, as of now a specific date has not been announced.

Shelley

 

[shelleys1]

Nick,

I did make a call a few minutes ago just to be sure I wasn't making a mistake. The answer I received was that County PD was going to be using 800MhZ frequencies...that meaning not below or above 800-899MhZ. BUT I will call someone else tomorrow morning to absolutely verify it for me. I'm doing this to set my own mind at ease...and I want to make absolutely sure I'm passing on the correct information!! By 9am tomorrow morning, I (we) will know for sure. *smile*

Shelley

 

[shelleys1]

Nick,
I'm going to make a quick call tomorrow morning to the people who will absolutely know. I cannot say I'm an expert in any way, shape or form! I will, of course, let you know as soon as I talk to them! Thanks ahead of time for being patient with me!

Shelley

P.S. There is no way that I believe other 700mhz frequencies are going away. St. Louis County applied for thousands of frequencies (9,000 to be exact) so that there would be enough of them available throughout the metropolitan area.
I don't know what the answer will be tomorrow when I ask about 800mhz. But I will ask first thing tomorrow morning and reply back with exactly what they say!

 

[shelleys1]

Oh, by the way Nick - over the next couple of weeks I'm going to be over at the new building, working on getting the coax run and antennas installed on the roof!! We're going to basically have an antenna farm up there - how kewl!!