Suggestions for employer illegally using UHF Part 90 frequencies

[na7q]

My employer, a local grade school of all things, has purchased a set of cheap Retevis H-777 radios. These are rebranded Baofeng BF-888S. The school is going from legal FRS radios to using these new radios on police and business frequencies. I have talked to them already about the radios not being part 90 or 95 compliant, but also for illegally using random frequencies they are not licensed for.
I'm no expert on FCC rules and regulations, but i know this is 100% without a doubt illegal.

The school has no two way radio licenses and has no intentions of going legal. They ask the employees to use these new radios, knowing it is illegal to use them. Including my wife who needs a radio for her classroom has turned down the radio. Yet they will not accept her answer. I personally chatted with those in charge and was told that it doesn't matter if it's illegal because they are a school and can get away with it.

There are users who are licensed for these frequencies nearby. So interference is a big possibility.

What should I do about this?

We are both hams as well.

 

[mancow]

I would shut up and forget it. For the most part they're right. Nobody will likely care.


Someone will come along and berate me for this but it's true. The reality is the FCC is not going to fine some poor teacher handed a radio by her employer. It just won't happen.

At the most suggest an FRS frequency and forget it.

 

[rjglenn]

I wouldn't worry much about it.

Is it illegal? Yes. Does it matter? Probably not. First there would have to be harmful interference. Not very likely as a Baofeng radio operating inside a building like a school isn't going to radiate much past the fence. If there was some interference then is the signal strong enough to be harmful? If so, the licensee who is being interfered with would have to complain and complain and complain to the FCC for them to even come and look into it. By then I'm sure word of mouth will get back to the school and they'll just select some other random frequency. Worst case scenario they get caught; the FCC will be reluctant to fine a grade school and they certainly wouldn't go after a teacher.

EDIT: Why not use the FRS frequencies in the Baofengs? As crappy as they are I'm sure they would be better than the Walmart FRS radios.

 

[RayAir]

If you're an at-will employee you should stay mum.

 

[SteveSimpkin]

I think you did everything you could do. You informed them that they would be using frequencies and radios that they are not licensed for. At least you made the effort so they would not be doing something illegal simply out of ignorance. You have no standing complaining to the FCC since they are not using your frequencies or causing interference to your legal use of your radios. Any complaints would have to come from the frequency owners and they would probably have the burden of proof to establish that the school is causing harmful interference to them. I am sorry that your wife is peripherally involved in this particularly since she is a ham too. Maybe she can "disable" her H-777 somehow. I understand they are terribly unreliable...

 

[na7q]

I can disable the radios as I have the programming cables for them but as an employee, I don't want to cause trouble yet. They do not have programming cables. Sadly they just used the shipped factory frequencies.

I think you did everything you could do. You informed them that they would be using frequencies and radios that they are not licensed for. At least you made the effort so they would not be doing something illegal simply out of ignorance. You have no standing complaining to the FCC since they are not using your frequencies or causing interference to your legal use of your radios. Any complaints would have to come from the frequency owners and they would probably have the burden of proof to establish that the school is causing harmful interference to them. I am sorry that your wife is peripherally involved in this particularly since she is a ham too. Maybe she can "disable" her H-777 somehow. I understand they are terribly unreliable...

The coverage far surpasses the school walls, contrary to what some of you might think. It can be heard many miles away. Up to 20 in areas. Topography can produce good propagation.

 

[CarolinasFeedNet]

The problem with your advice is the wife is a ham and jeopardizing her license by using it. That puts a whole different spin on it, the responsibility shifts from the school to her. But assuming this is a public school the "outside contract" purchase of two-way radios is a bigger illegality.

 

[n5ims]

Perhaps mailing a letter to your local school board stating what's being done under their authority and including a printout of the regulations in play and the $10,000 per violation (adding that each day would be a separate violation) and let them do their job. The amount of the fine should help them to take things seriously. If they act and become legal fine. If they fail to act, that notification may provide your wife some protection since she's just an employee following their direction on the use of the supplied radios and she could claim that based on the lack of action led her to believe that the radios were legal.

 

[paulears]

For goodness sake! I realise that they're breaking the law. In the same way they probably copy more than the prescribed limit they're allowed, and they use music without any thought to the copyright. The radios have a VERY short range and are unlikely to even communicate properly let alone interfere, unless you have a legitimate user next door!

Life is just too short to waste time making a big thing about this. You raised concerns, they told you to carry on. Just chat about it nicely in an email - "I'm really worried about using these radios, are you sure it's ok?"If the response from the supervisor level person is positive - then in the extremely unlikely event of trouble - you're in the clear.

HOWEVER - does the US have an equivalent to the UK's complex and painful safeguarding rules? Most schools here have clear policies designed to keep the kids safe, and this includes protecting their names, addresses and personal information. So passing a message saying Jennie Smith is ill, but her mum says it's ok for her to go home and be on her own until she gets home in an hour is ABSOLUTELY out of the question. It puts the child in danger, so responsible schools use encryption or at the least audio scrambling. Unprotected data her in the UK is a legal big issue for schools. Anyone with a scanner outside the school could be a paedophile in our paranoia ridden society.

 

[dcr_inc]

Have you ever exceeded the speed limit?.. Have you ever J Walked?..
They are both as illegal as the radios and their use in business band..

As the New York folks say " Dohn worry 'bout it"..

A $10.00 radio isn't worth loosing a job over..

 

[radioman2001]

Typical school admin mentality we are an island and we decide what can and cannot be done on school property. It's another don't bother with it, you are not doing any harm, and I bet he or she is a Democrat. That's why we have 8 million illegals in this country everyone thinks they are entitled to break the law, any law. Sure everyone speeds, but what the state doesn't tell you is that the road was more than likely designed for a greater speed than the limit, and they want the fines.

Quote"
Have you ever exceeded the speed limit?.. Have you ever J Walked?..
They are both as illegal as the radios and their use in business band..

Not really speed fine $250.00 J walking $100.00. Minimum liability can be as high as 10K per radio. Don't believe me look up some of the FCC actions, Federal Express ACCIDENTLY sent radio's from one airport to another with the wrong frequency, and another time their radio shop misplaced a digit when programming and ended up on a police frequency in them and paid nearly a million in fines.

I agree an anon letter to the school board should be done. If that doesn't work try and find a frequency they are using, look up a legal or several licensed users on the FCC website call ( all listed in their application) and let them know whats happening and let them complain. The FCC won't investigate unless the complaint comes from a licensed user.

After all I and a lot of others spend huge amounts of money for a LEGAL license. Whether they interfere or not isn't the issue. Will full operating without authority on a frequency is.

Take it from me, as I was targeted by the FCC for supposed unauthorized operation on a channel. The liability was 4K a day. Turns out it was some one else.

Edit:
Not that I particularly like doing this, sometimes an anon call to the local press can bring large pressure to correct a situation once it's know in the public.

 

[cg]

Too bad you are an employee and have posted about it. Some XXX audio broadcast over the channel during the school day would shut them down faster than the FCC. Offending someone in a school would get results faster than pointing out they are breaking the law.

chris

 

[mmckenna]

I can disable the radios as I have the programming cables for them but as an employee, I don't want to cause trouble yet. They do not have programming cables. Sadly they just used the shipped factory frequencies.

I'd strongly advise thinking twice before doing this. The radios do not belong to you. Disabling them simply because you can, doesn't put you in the right. That's akin to stealing the distributor cap off someone else's car because they have exceeded the speed limit.

Take a deep breath, let it out slowly. There are ways to tactfully deal with this, and that isn't the way. You've let them know that they are in violation. You can file a complaint with the FCC, but don't expect anything. Do not take the law into your own hands.

Too bad you are an employee and have posted about it. Some XXX audio broadcast over the channel during the school day would shut them down faster than the FCC. Offending someone in a school would get results faster than pointing out they are breaking the law.

chris

And that would be an entire separate violation. Two wrongs don't make a right.


Deep breaths, folks. We aren't radio cops. If it's this concerning, report it to the FCC and let the professionals deal with it.

 

[nd5y]

This could happen to you if you operate on the wrong frequency.
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2017/db0915/DOC-346740A1.pdf

 

[15plus1]

If you're an at-will employee you should stay mum.

What he said...

 

[na7q]

I get that everybody has their different opinion on the matter. But for us as hams, and FCC license holders, we don't want to risk anything. Since the frequencies being used are part of the police frequencies in the local areas, we want nothing to do with interfering of those licensed to be on the radio.
Here's how I see the disabling of the transmit on the radio. It was loaned to us, nothing was signed saying we couldn't do this or that to it. So disabling the transmit would make it so the radio could not illegally be used, and that's the priority.
We told them we didn't want the radio. They wouldn't take no for answer. She was forced to use it yesterday. So it's becoming a serious problem on our part for wanting to be legal.

 

[paulears]

Holding an amateur radio licence has absolutely NOTHING to do with this. Using a radio supplied by your employer requires no knowledge of licensing, or technical standards. Using it presents no danger to your ham licence. If these radios are interfering with Police communications then no doubt the FCC will beat on the school door, and speak to the head/principal/CEO, not the teacher in the room.

So please don't say "us hams" or FCC license holders. I have our version of these licence - ham, marine, business and none of these things are linked. The FCC would ban these things if they caused interference, but the most likely condition is that they just have the capacity to cause interference, but are not actually doing it. If you really have strong ethical feelings, then simply refuse to use the radios, and at the disciplinary hearing cite your unwillingness to operate radios illegally as your case. You probably won't have been suspended for very long, and your career obviously won't have any potential stalling for bringing the school into disrepute.

I might be old now - but "doing the right thing" is NEVER good for career advancement, no matter how right you are.

It's a fight not worth fighting, for a cause not worth following. It can only end in tears. My OFCOM and your FCC have no resources to even stop the importation of these things, because they do not cause any grief. If they did, they would stop it. No Government department is going to spend thousands on one $10 radio that might, just might cause interference. With CTCSS at the very least, I doubt the radio will be able to do much damage. The damage will be done to YOUR reputation. Will the bean counters understand if the school get shopped, and fined because of your interference with the system.

Please - thousands of these radios are being used worldwide on the wrong channels and nobody cares. Ethically, and perhaps morally, you are correct - but please, think of the consequences of winding the powers that be up. Who will win in the end.

I did similar years ago, revealing in a minuted meeting that the Pricipal's plan for the new build could not go ahead as he'd not realised the land he was looking at was already sold. Three weeks later, his plan was scrapped. Four weeks later, I got my new timetable. All my nice classes had been given to somebody else, and I had picked up all the horrible ones, as I was the most qualified. Six months later, after numerous other back stabs, I left. My problem was that I pushed my knowledge that I was right and he was wrong. Please - think about this, and just forget you know about radios.

 

[mikewazowski]

Deep breaths, folks. We aren't radio cops. If it's this concerning, report it to the FCC and let the professionals deal with it.

Excellent advice.

 

[ElroyJetson]

The school administrators may not care, but more likely, the school DISTRICT supervisors probably do. If you were to bring this to THEIR attention, then perhaps the problem can be corrected by pressure from above.

I'm expected to comply with the FCC rules and regulations, and I'm not going to give a school a pass on that. They can comply, same as me.

 

[bharvey2]

You've expressed your concern and as the saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water...." If and when this ever blows up on them, that will be their responsibility not yours. If you have any copies of e-mails regarding your conversation with them, keep them for peace of mind. Otherwise, I'd leave it alone. Sabotaging the school's property will come back to haunt you.