• To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:

    Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.

    If you are having trouble legally obtaining software please state so. We do not want any hurt feelings when your vague post is mistaken for a free request. It is YOUR responsibility to properly word your request.

    To obtain Motorola software see the Sticky in the Motorola forum.

    The various other vendors often permit their dealers to sell the software online (i.e., Kenwood). Please use Google or some other search engine to find a dealer that sells the software. Typically each series or individual radio requires its own software package. Often the Kenwood software is less than $100 so don't be a cheapskate; just purchase it.

    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

    This is a large and very visible forum. We cannot jeopardize the ability to provide the RadioReference services by allowing this activity to occur. Please respect this.

Support for TDMA P25 Phase II

Status
Not open for further replies.

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
Does anyone know if the new TDMA P25 systems and frequencies can be monitored and if any scanner manufacturers will be able to support it? Here in Oregon the State is installing a Statewide TDMA system over the next few years so I'm just curious if the systems can be monitored in the future.
 

GTR8000

NYS Database Guy
Database Admin
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
8,161
Location
BEE00
Currently, no.

In the future? I guess we'll have to wait and see. Phase II is going to become very popular in short order on these P25 systems, so you can bet the scanner manufacturers will want to incorporate the capability into their digital models. How soon, or even if, that becomes reality is the obvious question.
 

greenthumb

Colorado DB Administrator
Database Admin
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
1,940
If the current date for 700 MHz 6.25 kHz equivalent bandwidth sticks, more of these phase II TDMA systems should be showing up in the next few years on 700 MHz as users transition away from their 12.5 kHz bandwidth voice systems. Personally, unless there are substantial RF filtering improvements that don't skyrocket the price or new feature enhancements made to today's line of scanners, I won't be purchasing anything new until they add the ability to decode phase II, or put the hardware in the radio and promise a no-cost firmware upgrade to do it. I see no reason that these systems won't have the capability to be scanned since the TDMA protocol will be part of the P25 standards, thus replicable. Hopefully the scanner manufacturers will stay ahead of the technology this time instead of being several steps behind (e.g. trunking, P25 and 700 MHz).
 
Last edited:

wlmr

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
414
Hopefully the scanner manufacturers will stay ahead of the technology this time instead of being several steps behind (e.g. trunking, P25 and 700 MHz).
I'm betting they may be able to work up the basic functions in the scanner but until they can test on live systems the scanner makers won't have anything ready to release right away. Anyone ever heard of the possibility of the radio system manufacturers letting the scanner manufacturers play with new stuff being developed? That would be nice but unless that ever comes into being we'll always have to wait for the scanners to catch up.
 

wlmr

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
414
You also have to wait for a market to develop.
True. I'd be curious as to when/how fast that market would develop. How many people would be in the stores within a few days to a week or three of discovering that newly licensed frequencies were active with a new type of system. There seems to be persons ready to get their hands on the scanners as soon as they hit the stores - especially in the current environment of the scanner manufacturers being able to update how their product works out in the real world.
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
But the first Phase 2 systems won't be on the air for about a year.
 

wlmr

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
414
But the first Phase 2 systems won't be on the air for about a year.
Makes me glad I'm not the one that's intently gazing into a crystal ball trying to figure out when to get serious about meeting the demand of a future market. Scanner buyers won't be happy with anything released later than the day after someone finds activity on a frequency. (And it needs to work flawlessly right out of the box too.)
 

ButchGone

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2004
Messages
831
Hmmm..

Is TDMA a requirement for P25 Phase 2? The last time I read something on phase 2 it only mentioned using a narrower bandwidth - 6.26KHz to comply with the 2013 narrowbanding rules. I didn't see anything about having to be TDMA. Now I may be behind the times, but isn't TDMA an old technolgy, a modulation format, that cell companies got away from because of technical limitations?
A new wide area P25 system going up in my area on 700MHz and they are using 6.25MHZ width with LSM.
Also, if TDMA were a requirement, wouldn't it be an open format that reciever manufacturers could adopt for the open market using P25?
BG..
 

wlmr

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
414
Is TDMA a requirement for P25 Phase 2? The last time I read something on phase 2 it only mentioned using a narrower bandwidth - 6.26KHz to comply with the 2013 narrowbanding rules. I didn't see anything about having to be TDMA. Now I may be behind the times, but isn't TDMA an old technolgy, a modulation format, that cell companies got away from because of technical limitations?
A new wide area P25 system going up in my area on 700MHz and they are using 6.25MHZ width with LSM.
Also, if TDMA were a requirement, wouldn't it be an open format that reciever manufacturers could adopt for the open market using P25?
BG..
My memory is rusty - at one point you were correct - just had to be narrower than 6.26. 2 TDMA channels per frequency was one discussion, cutting down somehow on the modulation bandwidth and staying exclusively FDMA per frequency was another.

TDMA is still out there, not just in older cellular systems. TETRA uses it I think.

I don't recall off the top of my head what LSM's modulation measures out as but at this point I think that the portable/mobile radios all talk inward using C4FM.

Anyone out there who's memory is more shiny than mine?
 

greenthumb

Colorado DB Administrator
Database Admin
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
1,940
I don't think anyone has cracked the secret to reliable public safety grade digital voice communications using a single FDMA channel at 6.25 kHz. The big players (Motorola and Harris) are intending to sell 6.25 kHz equivalent systems to comply with the 700 MHz mandate using P25 phase II (or a close, proprietary knock off of it) which is TDMA over a 12.5 kHz channel.

If the current deadline holds, the market for these systems will grow quickly, or 700 MHz won't be used.
 

Comint

Member
Database Admin
Joined
May 21, 2003
Messages
630
Location
Queensland, Australia
. . . TDMA is still out there, not just in older cellular systems. TETRA uses it I think.
TETRA is 4 slot TDMA in 25kHz bandwidth.
MOTOTRBO is 2 slot TDMA in 12.5kHz bandwidth
Digital Mobile Radio (DMR) Tier III, a recent European Standard, is 2 slot TDMA in 12.5kHz bandwidth.

--
Comint
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
There are lots of TDMA systems (and they are all significantly different)
It is neither an "OLD" nor a "NEW" technology, no more than saying "Cellular" or "trunking" is "old' or "new".


P25 Phase 2 is 2 slot TDMA.

There is a standard for 6.25 kHz FDMA but no one has yet, and no one seem eager to implement it. So if you think someone is implementing it, you are mistaken.
 

ButchGone

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2004
Messages
831
Well the new 700Mhz system being installed in Tennessee uses 6.25KHz bandwidth and it's totally monitorable with a 396. I was told they are phase 2 compliant and use LSM. There are no plans to run TDMA on this. That's why I was questioning whether phase 2 had to use TDMA, thinking that TDMA COULD be used if someone wanted. I still have not found any literature showing TDMA has been mandated since other technologies work fine in 6.25KHz slots.
BG..
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
The TDMA spec calls for a half-rate vocoder. The manufacturers will have to re-license the code to do this from DVSI.
 
N

N_Jay

Guest
Well the new 700Mhz system being installed in Tennessee uses 6.25KHz bandwidth and it's totally monitorable with a 396.
Someone is mistaken.
It can not be since there is no such system from any manufacturer.
The fact the 396 monitors it confirms it is P25 Phase 1 (12.5 kHz, 9600 BPS, etc.)

I was told they are phase 2 compliant and use LSM.
To quote Marty Feldman "You were told wrong."

There are no plans to run TDMA on this.
Acording to? (Not doubting, just confused)

That's why I was questioning whether phase 2 had to use TDMA, thinking that TDMA COULD be used if someone wanted. I still have not found any literature showing TDMA has been mandated since other technologies work fine in 6.25KHz slots.
Hence how believing a few incorrect "facts" causes you to misunderstand others.

As said;
1) P25 Phase 2 "IS" TDMA for all practical purposes.
2) P25 Phase 2 is the only 6.25e (6.25 kHz equivalent) system currently in the standards and planned for production.
3) 6.25 kHz FDMA is in the standards but not being built by anyone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top