Surely someon will add TRBO soon?

[KB7MIB]

Nationally, what percentage of public safety agencies have switched to DMR (or NXDN)?

What percentage of scanner listeners listen to anything outside of public safety?

What percentage point of public safety agencies switching to DMR/NXDN will be the tipping point for manufacturers to pay for any rights to include DMR/NXDN (trunking) in their scanner offerings?

If the number of scanner listeners who listen to businesses is a small fraction of scanner listeners, and the number of public safety agencies using DMR/NXDN is a small fraction of the total number of agencies across the country, then the demand isn't there.

It comes down to how much is it going to cost the manufacturers to add these modes to their scanners, versus how much they will make by selling them. Until there is a profit to be made, don't expect to see DMR/NXDN-capable scanners.

John
Peoria, AZ

 

[mancow]

The numbers are growing. I think it's a brilliant marketing ploy. They know P25 is out of reach for most agencies that aren't State or are below 50k population based. They came up with a digital protocol that for all intents and purposes is exactly like P25 to the end user but at a fraction of the price. I think you will see many more move to it as time progresses. As for me here, almost all of what I listen to will be out of reach by anything on the market now. My county, my PD, the county to the West, the County to the South, the school district, the power company, the gas company, local security companies, local businesses and a good portion of the ham repeaters...

 

[KC1UA]

Some companies are very forthcoming with future endeavors, and they're probably taking a risk by doing so, and need to be very vague regarding release dates, so as not to alienate their customer base (maybe in some cases any further than they already have). So yeah, I know it's at least Uniden's policy to not comment on forthcoming products more than 6 months in advance. Not sure what Whistler's is. That said, one has to wonder if these major manufacturers look at the way the wind is blowing and consider it's hard to compete with cheap Chinese radios that receive DMR...and cheap $10 dongles that in a two dongle configuration with a laptop and a subscription to DSD+ do an incredible job of decoding DMR and NXDN.

Then, there's AOR, who proved it could be done when they released the AR-DV1 receiver, a highly flawed but quality device that was expensive, but not a bank breaker. P25, NXDN, DMR, and a few amateur digital modes all receivable in one package, but highly lacking because it has no ability to even simply display basic data from any of the digital systems. But...they put it all in one small transportable package.

I know that the DSD+ setup is geeky and not entirely portable, but boy does it work well. And before you talk about the "legitimacy" of the software, if someone broke down their doors today and shut them down (not likely) what they've already accomplished would work for the foreseeable future, I'd think.

The thing that irritates me about the major manufacturers is that they've never provided an explanation as to what the issues with not adding these protocols are. As I've posted elsewhere I'd rather have someone tell me to go screw than leave me wondering if I should. Make an announcement; communicate with your would-be customers. Either allow them to move on or to have something to look forward to. The bottom line is that there are ways, understandably not ideal ones, to listen to these agencies as they change.

One has to wonder if the major manufacturers have a fear that the encryption key can just be turned when the system owners find out that we're listening. I'd not be a bit surprised. As a public safety employee I support encryption where it's needed, but never for a public safety dispatch frequency or talkgroup. I could see them coming out with a scanner that supports the protocol though, hypothetically, and then having this nightmare scenario occur. Casual listeners that miss hearing their agency, suddenly being able to hear them again, and then they're ultimately gone as the price of said encryption on DMR (maybe NXDN, not sure) is FAR cheaper than that of P25.

I'd not hold my breath on any of it. The frustration for those that have had their agencies move to these protocols must be high; I'm fortunate that is not the case here, so it's easy for me to provide this rant. But, until and unless they turn that encryption key there is a way. If and when they do, whatever equipment and/or method being used to monitor said systems becomes irrelevant anyway.

 

[RayAir]

Maybe it is better if a DMR/NXDN scanner isn't released?

I've given it some thought and although it would be nice, it would put those protocols in to the hands of anyone who bought the scanner. The only thing that might stop them is the price.

At least now TRBO and NXDN reps can say their systems offer inherent security due to the fact a scanner cannot receive them.

Those of us who are more technically adept can run specialized software , get the necessary info, and program up our own radios for our listening pleasure.

The casual scanner listener likely won't know how to go about it and won't want to put in the time or research required to program these digital protocols.

A DMR scanner might for instance auto decode the color code, time slot, and talk group numbers. So now the salesman can no longer say their system is "scanner-safe", " But wait, if ya just check this here box and make a 10 digit hexadecimal key they won't be able to listen. Here's how to do it."

Not really worried about TRBO Basic Privacy or 15 bit NXDN scramble, but Enhanced Privacy will shut most everyone out.

RAS is good for stopping most people from getting in the system, but last I read it had some serious security flaws and did not stop unauthorized system access under certain conditions.

RAS will stop you from using a radio, but DSD doesnt care one iota about RAS.

 

[SOFA_KING]

These two-way type radios are limited in the number of channels (talkgroups) they can scan, and they can't search out CCs or TGs, so that is why we NEED scanners.

Let's face it, the scanner manufacturers failed to see the trends and resulting demand. Uniden has this "spoon feeding" philosophy (to keep you coming back for more $500 a pop radios) and is now way behind demand. Let's get on with it already. Give us a full-featured QUALITY scanner that does everything we want. No more excuses. And no, I don't want to resort to the limitations of a two-way radio. I want a real SCANNER!

 

[phillydjdan]

You go ahead and keep stomping your feet lol.

Just bear in mind, if that's what you want, you're likely to have to pay twice what you're paying now to get it. While some would be willing, not enough of us would to justify them spending the money required to manufacture it.

 

[buddrousa]

Maybe like it was said if that is what you want maybe you need to become technically inclined so you can get what you want and not kill the hobby.

 

[grem467]

NexEdge and DMR systems around me have started turning on the encryption already. Groups I used to be able to monitor with DSD have gone encrypted and all new groups are encrypted out of the gate.

 

[buddrousa]

The Radio Shops and the Local Governments are monitoring this site they have for years. You just can not get some people to listen and use common sense.

 

[SOFA_KING]

You go ahead and keep stomping your feet lol.

Just bear in mind, if that's what you want, you're likely to have to pay twice what you're paying now to get it. While some would be willing, not enough of us would to justify them spending the money required to manufacture it.

Dan (or is it Pauley Wallnuts ? ), all these scanner companies make different levels of scanner technology just for that reason. Just buy the level you need...simple. The AMBE chip is already there, although there is probably an additional license fee needed for each protocol. I don't think it would have to cost that much more.

Encryption choice is always up to YOUR elected government. My local government in my county made a deliberate choice NOT to encrypt anything but special investigation and special TAC channels. They believe in transparency in government. If your government representatives don't, elect new ones.

I already have /\/\ 4550 and 4580 radios on each band, as well as 6550 and 6580 radios on each band. And I have Genesis if I need it. There is some minor DMR stuff around me, but nothing worth the trouble to listen to...yet. I use mine for Amateur Radio (we have V/U & 900 around my area). But 16 channels a zone gets used up fast. No different than any other mode when you compare two-way radios to scanners.

It's really simple, guys. You don't want it? Don't buy it! But don't try to stop anyone else from wanting or buying it. Just doesn't make sense. I bet most of you naysayers would buy at least one, if not more, if they made a decent multi-digital mode scanner.

 

[phillydjdan]

I don't think you quite understand how much money it takes to do that. It's not that simple. R & D, prototypes, countless hours of testing, failing and more testing. Component manufactures charge large sums of money to setup new products. That one IC that one electronics company makes for them charges several thousand bucks to setup the machinery for that IC to be made. Not to mention the first prototype likely gets scrubbed and a new one is made (perhaps a few times) until they come up with something they like. I'm willing to bet the 536HP cost Uniden about half a million to a million bucks to get to final production. Sure, they sold how many thousands of units. Now, add the additional costs to add DMR to that unit and the fraction of buyers who will want it and you can see how hard of a sell this product would be to the man in charge of maximizing profits and lining his pockets. I can guarantee you if one came out only about 25% of us would pay the $1000 for the unit. But hey, if they do I'll wait and see the reviews and think about plunking down the dough. I just wouldn't hold my breath that I'll ever see one.

 

[papavictor]

Dan (or is it Pauley Wallnuts ? ), all these scanner companies make different levels of scanner technology just for that reason. Just buy the level you need...simple. The AMBE chip is already there, although there is probably an additional license fee needed for each protocol. I don't think it would have to cost that much more.

Encryption choice is always up to YOUR elected government. My local government in my county made a deliberate choice NOT to encrypt anything but special investigation and special TAC channels. They believe in transparency in government. If your government representatives don't, elect new ones.

I already have /\/\ 4550 and 4580 radios on each band, as well as 6550 and 6580 radios on each band. And I have Genesis if I need it. There is some minor DMR stuff around me, but nothing worth the trouble to listen to...yet. I use mine for Amateur Radio (we have V/U & 900 around my area). But 16 channels a zone gets used up fast. No different than any other mode when you compare two-way radios to scanners.

It's really simple, guys. You don't want it? Don't buy it! But don't try to stop anyone else from wanting or buying it. Just doesn't make sense. I bet most of you naysayers would buy at least one, if not more, if they made a decent multi-digital mode scanner.

Technologically the DV scanner mass market is still too young and volatile, too many protocols being sorted out. When the dust settles a bit more the major manufacturers will offer products to handle the biggest majority of potential customers.

I full agree that fully locked down encryption will not necessarily be a panacea. As stated, transparency in government, especially with police policies, is a hot political issue now.

Don't forget that a significantly powerful user of scanners are the news media. They will not take being blocked from access laying down.

I think some local PD's have actually issued unlocked scanners programmed with their required encryption keys, to legitimate media registered users. And today almost any body can become a reporter, ie, Patch.com.

In most states its long been illegal to have a scanner in a car, unless you're a Federal licensed radio amateur. In all my vehicles there is a photocopy of my FCC ticket and the state statute permitting me to carry a scanner, just in case Officer Friendly takes issue ... ;-)

 

[KC4RAF]

Agree with Pillydjdan about his post. I use to work in electronics, radar and microwave systems back in the early '70s and learned a lot about R&D and set up for such. Spoke with many reps of Litton, Texas Instruments, and others about why not do this or that. They informed me of the cost of changing many of their radar systems for KC,Mo international airport. I was blown away at some of their answers in costs.
This translates down to scanners as well. R&D isn't cheap. Some times ideas are trashed because of the final cost to the consumer. Now a days it is a little different, but not by much. The digital scanners, new, cost a pretty penny because the company has to recoup their R&D funds spent. That adds to the final cost of the scanner. People, me being one of them, complain about the cost, but I know why their not as cheap as analog scanners. Making a new IC is expensive, designing a new circut board for the chip comes in to play. The price for simple components, like resistors, caps, etc aren't going to go up unless the market dictates it to, so those parts don't contribute to the final price.
But remember, it isn't cheap to design a new scanner, or radio, or tv, etc.

 

[jaymatt1978]

Idiots STILL don't include CTCSS/DCS decode. Radio is WORTHLESS

Here you go $1,195.00 plus shipping. It only does conventional not trunking.
AOR AR-DV1 Shipping Now Plus UPS shipping - $1,195.00 : The Hamstation!, Your one stop on-line source for amateur radio fun.

 

[buddrousa]

Give China about a year to come out with a cheap clone. Like they have with the cheap clone walkies.

 

[SOFA_KING]

I worked in R&D, designed circuits and did CAD on boards. Mistakes can cost a ton of money, so don't make them. I was happy to do it right the first time and make the products a success. It does cost money, but you invest in demand. Protocols? As I see it, they are already set in stone for commercial use. Amateur radio? Not so much. "Confusion" may not survive. D-star? It has a wide base. But DMR is here to stay. NXDN I think is also not going to subside. Then there is a TETRA. Not big here in the U.S., but big in Europe.

If they do a righteous job on a scanner, I'll pay good money for it. Half-baked? No, not interested. My expectations went up since I got my iPhone. There is a company that knows how to build a product that handles complicated tasks with the most ease of use. Truly fantastic development. That is the way to do it.

I'm enjoying this discussion though. Good point of view all the way around.

Phil