Talkgroup ID's for Public Safety Communications Service - Manitoba

VA4JOE

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Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
I have been monitoring the Winkler, Manitoba P25 node and have a small but growing list of TGIDs that are all unidentified because the system is encrypted. I am wondering if anybody knows of somewhere on the internet where these TGIDs are identified with the user agencies. I notice that none of the P25 groups that are listed on this website come up, so I wonder if most of the TGIDs are local in nature.

Here is my list so far:

1520 Unknown1
1711 Unknown2
1771 Unknown3
1773 Unknown4
1774 Unknown5
1776 Unknown6
1891 Unknown7
1899 Unknown8
1902 Unknown9
1915 Unknown10
2204 Unknown11
2226 Unknown12
2542 Unknown13
28017 Unknown14
40005 Unknown15
40018 Unknown16
40019 Unknown17
40021 Unknown18
40038 Unknown19
40053 Unknown20
41204 Unknown21
41241 Unknown22
41243 Unknown23
41477 Unknown24
41477 Unknown25
42050 Unknown26
42063 Unknown27
42060 Unknown28

Any Idea who they might be? =)
 

mciupa

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I'm here a lot
From their website it shows:

Who will be the users of PSCS?

PSCS may include a broad range of Government and Non-Government agencies, all of which contribute to public safety of Manitobans.

  • Category 1 users (police, fire, and emergency medical services) permitted to use the 700 MHz radio service on the PSCS System.
  • Category 2 users (forestry, public works, public transit, hazardous material clean-up, border protection and other agencies contributing to public safety).
  • Category 3 users (other government agencies and certain non-government agencies) may be permitted to access to the PSCS System during emergency situations where their access is controlled by a Category 1 user.

Looking at the Brandon Fire in the 40000 series, maybe various Fire Services are in that range.
 

BC_Scan

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Location
Vancouver BC
My friend (VA4JOE), if you look at Alberta's equivalent system, people have been actively ID'ing RCMP ENC all over the place through a variety of methods , SDR, etc
Unless you meet a programmer of said system and see program sheet for each agency, we will never know.
If you had a radio on hand and went through all the channels with scanner/SDR and looked at talk group pop up we will never know. It's those that sleuth through this all that figure it out.
Said agency will never generally release this as it's need to know, so likely we will never know.
 

VA4JOE

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Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
My friend (VA4JOE), if you look at Alberta's equivalent system, people have been actively ID'ing RCMP ENC all over the place through a variety of methods , SDR, etc
Unless you meet a programmer of said system and see program sheet for each agency, we will never know.
If you had a radio on hand and went through all the channels with scanner/SDR and looked at talk group pop up we will never know. It's those that sleuth through this all that figure it out.
Said agency will never generally release this as it's need to know, so likely we will never know.
How could those Albertans find that out with just a SDR if it is encrypted? One way I can think of is if you can get close enough to them when they are transmitting, monitor the input frequency with GQRX and when you see a transmission happening check OP25 to see what TGID is active. Might need two SDRs for that.
 

VA4JOE

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Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
Here is an updated list if anyone is able or willing to identify the talkgroup ID's with their corresponding entity for the Winkler area P25 Node:

1520 Unknown1
1711 Unknown2
1771 Unknown3
1772 Unknown4
1773 Unknown5
1774 Unknown6
1776 Unknown7
1785 Unknown8
1891 Unknown9
1899 Unknown10
1900 Unknown11
1902 Unknown12
1911 Unknown13
1915 Unknown14
2204 Unknown15
2226 Unknown16
2542 Unknown17
26360 Unknown18
28011 Unknown19
28017 Unknown20
40005 Unknown21
40018 Unknown22
40019 Unknown23
40021 Unknown24
40034 Unknown25
40035 Unknown26
40038 Unknown27
40053 Unknown28
40224 Unknown29
40225 Unknown30
41002 Unknown31
41204 Unknown32
41241 Unknown33
41243 Unknown34
41477 Special35
42050 Unknown36
42051 Unknown37
42060 Unknown38

42063 Unknown39
 

VA4JOE

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Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
Talkgroup 41477 uses these radios:

103202
103203
103204
103206
103208

103213
 

VA4JOE

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Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
Found talkgroup 6061 with these radios, 80503,80504 operating in digital clear. Think they might be Manitoba Transportation and Infrastructure department.
 
Last edited:

VA4JOE

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Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
Spreadsheet data from LibreOffice Calc with Talkgroup ID's along with radios id's for the Winkler P25 Node in PDF file.
 

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  • TalkgroupsRadios.pdf
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ve4ear

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Joined
Oct 11, 2020
Messages
21
Location
Winnipeg, MB
I haven't seen any large dump of talkgroup info so I figured I will share what I have noticed. None of this information has come from official sources and is totally the results of monitoring the few clear talkgroups and making logical connections between radio id's and talkgroups base on affiliations and transmissions. This info is not helpful to the majority of folks as all the comm's are encrypted (almost all)

You will note that Talkgroup id's are clustered. It seems logical that all the sequential tg id's belong to one agency. You will then see gaps in talkgroup id's. Obviously allowing for expansion. The same with radio ID's. If you use software like DSD+, you can see the encryption key. It only follows that most agencies will use the same key id. The Manitoba government uses a key id=0002 for example.

All the radio ID's for consoles from Brandon 911, RCMP, etc, are all start with 6XXXXX
The major users are:
Bell Techs - 101-208
Natural resources - 1000 - 1089
OFC - 1500-1502
Rural Fire to 911 - 1520
Non fire to 911 - 1521
Various MB govt Dept - 1560-1785 not continuous
Rural Ambulances - 1890-1916 including STARS
Highways - 2200-2226
More MB Govt - 2450-2583
2MB Protective Services - 2590-2596
Brandon Police - 6275-6284
Various RM works departments - 10000-16101 - some in the clear
First Nation Police Service - 26360-26363
CCRA - 28000-28032
Either DND or Federal Agency - 28150-28161
17 Wing - 28170-28176
Mountain View Buses - 31000-31004
CP Rail Police - 31100-31102
Winnipeg Airport - 31440-31455
RCMP - 40000-40168 and 40980-40999
RCMP Joint with other agencies - 40213-40230
Common Interagency - 41000-41007
EMO Ops - 41008-41010
Common Police - 41011
Rural Fire - 41200-42004
Rural Police dispatched via Brandon - 42050-42065
Winnipeg Police - 43000-43007
Winnipeg Fire - 43101-43103
Bell - 50001-50012

For the various rural fire departments, Radio ID's start at 80000. Each department appears to have a block of 200 ID's.
For example:
80000-80199 - RM of Alexander
80200-80399 - RM of Alonsa
80400-80599 - Altona

It appears that each block of 200 radio ID's has been assigned alphabetically. If you compare against a list of the Rural Fire departments, it appears to match up quite well.
In some of these blocks of 200, they also assign the police department for that area and possibly the works folks. For example in Altona
80400-80449 - Altona Fire
80450-80499 - Altona Police
80500-80503 - Altona Works

RCMP radio ID's range from 500000-519152 (50xxxx=mobiles, 510xxx-511xxx portables, 519xxx base radios)

WPS radio id's are 810XXXX, WFPS, radio IDS are 820XXXX

I take no responsibility for the accuracy of this info, it is just my own personal observations and conjecture based on 5 years of control channel monitoring and understanding how radio systems could be structured. Any traffic that is encrypted is impossible to monitor with the knowledge of the encryption key. (256 bit AES) There is no guessing or brute force attacks so don't even bother.

Hopefully this is helpful for someone.

Found talkgroup 6061 with these radios, 80503,80504 operating in digital clear. Think they might be Manitoba Transportation and Infrastructure department.
I believe these are Altona Public Works Radios.

Talkgroup 41477 uses these radios:

103202
103203
103204
103206
103208

103213
I believe these to be Winkler Fire and the Talkgroup is the Winkler local or Tac channels

Further to the organization of the rural fire talkgroups., I believe they are organized first by Mutual Aid districts, then within each district, there will be various departments, usually by RM division.
So I believe they may look something like:

Mutual Aid area 1 -Dispatch A
Mutual Aid area 1- Dispatch B
Mutual Aid area 1- Dispatch C
Mutual Aid Area 2 -Dispatch A
Mutual Aid area 2- Dispatch B
Mutual Aid area 2- Dispatch C

The mutual Aid Districts I am aware of are:
EASTMAN
PEMBINA TRIANGLE
BOYNE RIVER
NORTH EAST
SOUTH INNTERLAKE
PEMBINA VALLEY
TURTLE MOUNTAIN
ANTLER RIVER
OAK LAKE
GRANDVALLEY
NEEPAWA
SOUTH CENTRAL
WEST CENTRAL
RIDING MOUNTAIN
NORTH INTERLAKE
SWAN RIVER VALLEY
CLEARWATER
LAKE WINNIPEG
HUDSON BAY
LAKE WINNIPEGOSIS

If you put the MAD alphabetically, usually 3 or 4 dispatch groups per MAD starting with Antler River at 41200, the dispatch groups extend up to the 41299.
Then starting at 14300 the individual departments have their own local working talkgroup.. These seem to be clustered together, like all the Boyne MAD departments will have talkgroups adjacent to each other. These may be shared with other departments within their own MAD.

Then the higher talkgroups like from 41500 approximately and up is where each dept seems to have their own private tactical talkgroup.

You will see the 911 consoles calling on the MAD dispatch groups and then the departments will switch off to their local talkgroup.

If a department wants to call 911, they have a button to press that alerts the dispatcher they are being called. They will also call in on talkgroup 1520 or 1521.

If there is any volunteer firefighters, they could confirm the talkgroup matrix in their radios.
 

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  • PSCS List.pdf
    1.3 MB · Views: 24

VA4JOE

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
I haven't seen any large dump of talkgroup info so I figured I will share what I have noticed. None of this information has come from official sources and is totally the results of monitoring the few clear talkgroups and making logical connections between radio id's and talkgroups base on affiliations and transmissions. This info is not helpful to the majority of folks as all the comm's are encrypted (almost all)

You will note that Talkgroup id's are clustered. It seems logical that all the sequential tg id's belong to one agency. You will then see gaps in talkgroup id's. Obviously allowing for expansion. The same with radio ID's. If you use software like DSD+, you can see the encryption key. It only follows that most agencies will use the same key id. The Manitoba government uses a key id=0002 for example.

All the radio ID's for consoles from Brandon 911, RCMP, etc, are all start with 6XXXXX
The major users are:
Bell Techs - 101-208
Natural resources - 1000 - 1089
OFC - 1500-1502
Rural Fire to 911 - 1520
Non fire to 911 - 1521
Various MB govt Dept - 1560-1785 not continuous
Rural Ambulances - 1890-1916 including STARS
Highways - 2200-2226
More MB Govt - 2450-2583
2MB Protective Services - 2590-2596
Brandon Police - 6275-6284
Various RM works departments - 10000-16101 - some in the clear
First Nation Police Service - 26360-26363
CCRA - 28000-28032
Either DND or Federal Agency - 28150-28161
17 Wing - 28170-28176
Mountain View Buses - 31000-31004
CP Rail Police - 31100-31102
Winnipeg Airport - 31440-31455
RCMP - 40000-40168 and 40980-40999
RCMP Joint with other agencies - 40213-40230
Common Interagency - 41000-41007
EMO Ops - 41008-41010
Common Police - 41011
Rural Fire - 41200-42004
Rural Police dispatched via Brandon - 42050-42065
Winnipeg Police - 43000-43007
Winnipeg Fire - 43101-43103
Bell - 50001-50012

For the various rural fire departments, Radio ID's start at 80000. Each department appears to have a block of 200 ID's.
For example:
80000-80199 - RM of Alexander
80200-80399 - RM of Alonsa
80400-80599 - Altona

It appears that each block of 200 radio ID's has been assigned alphabetically. If you compare against a list of the Rural Fire departments, it appears to match up quite well.
In some of these blocks of 200, they also assign the police department for that area and possibly the works folks. For example in Altona
80400-80449 - Altona Fire
80450-80499 - Altona Police
80500-80503 - Altona Works

RCMP radio ID's range from 500000-519152 (50xxxx=mobiles, 510xxx-511xxx portables, 519xxx base radios)

WPS radio id's are 810XXXX, WFPS, radio IDS are 820XXXX

I take no responsibility for the accuracy of this info, it is just my own personal observations and conjecture based on 5 years of control channel monitoring and understanding how radio systems could be structured. Any traffic that is encrypted is impossible to monitor with the knowledge of the encryption key. (256 bit AES) There is no guessing or brute force attacks so don't even bother.

Hopefully this is helpful for someone.


I believe these are Altona Public Works Radios.


I believe these to be Winkler Fire and the Talkgroup is the Winkler local or Tac channels

Further to the organization of the rural fire talkgroups., I believe they are organized first by Mutual Aid districts, then within each district, there will be various departments, usually by RM division.
So I believe they may look something like:

Mutual Aid area 1 -Dispatch A
Mutual Aid area 1- Dispatch B
Mutual Aid area 1- Dispatch C
Mutual Aid Area 2 -Dispatch A
Mutual Aid area 2- Dispatch B
Mutual Aid area 2- Dispatch C

The mutual Aid Districts I am aware of are:
EASTMAN
PEMBINA TRIANGLE
BOYNE RIVER
NORTH EAST
SOUTH INNTERLAKE
PEMBINA VALLEY
TURTLE MOUNTAIN
ANTLER RIVER
OAK LAKE
GRANDVALLEY
NEEPAWA
SOUTH CENTRAL
WEST CENTRAL
RIDING MOUNTAIN
NORTH INTERLAKE
SWAN RIVER VALLEY
CLEARWATER
LAKE WINNIPEG
HUDSON BAY
LAKE WINNIPEGOSIS

If you put the MAD alphabetically, usually 3 or 4 dispatch groups per MAD starting with Antler River at 41200, the dispatch groups extend up to the 41299.
Then starting at 14300 the individual departments have their own local working talkgroup.. These seem to be clustered together, like all the Boyne MAD departments will have talkgroups adjacent to each other. These may be shared with other departments within their own MAD.

Then the higher talkgroups like from 41500 approximately and up is where each dept seems to have their own private tactical talkgroup.

You will see the 911 consoles calling on the MAD dispatch groups and then the departments will switch off to their local talkgroup.

If a department wants to call 911, they have a button to press that alerts the dispatcher they are being called. They will also call in on talkgroup 1520 or 1521.

If there is any volunteer firefighters, they could confirm the talkgroup matrix in their radios.
I'm thinking the RCMP are 1890 -1916. There seem to be way too many radios in these groups to be EMS.
EMS services are 40000-40250 or something like that.
Pretty sure those 6060-6061 are Manitoba Transportation and Infrastructure. Otherwise I would likely be able to hear Winkler Public Works in the clear too.

I get these three linked together in different ways ((42063-42050)-42060). I'm thinking Winkler and Altona Police, or Morden Police. I think the others in that range , one might be the (Regional Support Tactical Team).
 

ve4ear

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2020
Messages
21
Location
Winnipeg, MB
No, the 1890-1916 are definitely the ambulance service. This was verified during the transition from FleetNet to the PSCS when patches existed between the two systems. You will also occasionally hear the EMS broadcast in the clear on Interagency 8 .
Likewise the RCMP are definitely the ones in the 40000-40168 range as they have identified in the clear on interagency 8.

The range 42050 to 42065 contains all the Police services that get dispatched by 911. These include, Morden, Winkler, Altona. St Annes, Rivers, Cornwallis, Springfield etc.

Since the radios using 6060-6061 have the radio IDs that come from the same block of 200 used by the Altona Fire and Altona police, Pretty sure they are Altona related.

On the old FleetNet system, Manitoba Transportation and Infrastructure used quite a few talkgroups throughout the province. I believe they are in the 2200-2226 range.

Based on radios, 41243(Dispatch),41477(TAC1),41478(TAC2),41706(UNDETERMINED) are all Winkler Fire Department.
41243 appears to have radios from Morden, Winkler, 911, and the OFC affiliated to it. My guesss is this is the one of the Pembina Valley MAD dispatch.
41242 appears to have radios from Emerson and Montcalm
41241 appears to have radios from Altona, and Rhineland

My understanding is these 3 talkgroups are all in the Pembina Triangle Mutual Aid District

41245 appears to have radios from Pembina and Louise RM's
41246 has radios from Lorne, and Treherne/Norfolk RM's

These two fall in the Pembina Valley MAD

41477 Has only had radios from Winkler fire and Winkler Police affiliate
41478 Has had only radios from Morden
41706 I have only seen radios from Morden
 

VA4JOE

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
No, the 1890-1916 are definitely the ambulance service. This was verified during the transition from FleetNet to the PSCS when patches existed between the two systems. You will also occasionally hear the EMS broadcast in the clear on Interagency 8 .
Likewise the RCMP are definitely the ones in the 40000-40168 range as they have identified in the clear on interagency 8.

The range 42050 to 42065 contains all the Police services that get dispatched by 911. These include, Morden, Winkler, Altona. St Annes, Rivers, Cornwallis, Springfield etc.

Since the radios using 6060-6061 have the radio IDs that come from the same block of 200 used by the Altona Fire and Altona police, Pretty sure they are Altona related.

On the old FleetNet system, Manitoba Transportation and Infrastructure used quite a few talkgroups throughout the province. I believe they are in the 2200-2226 range.


41243 appears to have radios from Morden, Winkler, 911, and the OFC affiliated to it. My guesss is this is the one of the Pembina Valley MAD dispatch.
41242 appears to have radios from Emerson and Montcalm
41241 appears to have radios from Altona, and Rhineland

My understanding is these 3 talkgroups are all in the Pembina Triangle Mutual Aid District

41245 appears to have radios from Pembina and Louise RM's
41246 has radios from Lorne, and Treherne/Norfolk RM's

These two fall in the Pembina Valley MAD

41477 Has only had radios from Winkler fire and Winkler Police affiliate
41478 Has had only radios from Morden
41706 I have only seen radios from Morden
Yeah, I could be wrong about a few things. It's awfully difficult to figure out with it being encrypted.
 

BC_Scan

Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2006
Messages
748
Location
Vancouver BC
Keep up the good work VE4's. You will never get this information from an official source (unless you get to know one of the Bell techs). That's why I always take advantage of local fire depts' yearly open house to get eyeballs on radio systems in use and look at displays and printed materials in order to see fire channel usage. etc
 

VA4JOE

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Messages
56
Question for you guys monitoring the system. Are the talkgroups listed correctly as D P25 Phase I or are they really T P25 Phase II?
For my OP25 command I do not use the --tdma-cc option but I do use the -2(--phase2-tdma) option which is for voice phase 2 decode. I also use the -V(--vocoder) option which the readme says is not used for Phase I.
 
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