Target Digital Radios

[IStebleton]

I'm in the Target in Sandusky Ohio, and they have digital radios, but they lol like the classic CLS radios, but I'm not picking up anything on those freqd or on CloseCall. I am unsure as where exactly to put this thread, so I figured I'd add it here

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

If I were to venture a guess I'd say more than likely 900mhz frequency hopping spread spectrum, as seems to be the trend now with various other retailers like Giant and Walmart. Further discussion on that here

 

[alcahuete]

@Whiskey3JMC is exactly right. If you look up the DLR radios, they look basically like the old CLS radios. They are 900 MHz FHSS. There is not a scanner in existence that can pick them up.

 

[jaspence]

The plan to switch for Sam's Club and Walmart to a similar system was also announced several months ago. The only way to monitor is by having a radio set up with the same parameters as the radios in the store. Your chances of guessing that setup are less than winning the lottery.

 

[IStebleton]

The plan to switch for Sam's Club and Walmart to a similar system was also announced several months ago. The only way to monitor is by having a radio set up with the same parameters as the radios in the store. Your chances of guessing that setup are less than winning the lottery.

So I'm guessing it's nothing like scanning even P25 or DMR radios? I'm walking through the store with an SDS100 and I have about an hour to chill.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

So I'm guessing it's nothing like scanning even P25 or DMR radios?

Re-iterating what was stated above...

Your chances of guessing that setup are less than winning the lottery.

 

[HavenBTS]

My only question is why are these 900 mhz FHSS radios so expensive?

 

[n1das]

The plan to switch for Sam's Club and Walmart to a similar system was also announced several months ago. The only way to monitor is by having a radio set up with the same parameters as the radios in the store. Your chances of guessing that setup are less than winning the lottery.

I believe Walmart* from what I read is moving to a particular Samsung smartphone and uses their in-store WiFi. This is unrelated to the 900MHz DLRs.

As jaspence said, the only inexpensive and practical way to monitor them is to have one yourself, AND it has to be set to the same frequency hopset and talkgroup ID. Your chances of guessing the Target setup are actually much better than winning the lottery. The Motorola 900MHz DLR and DTRs will talk to each other right out of the box at the factory default settings. No programming is required to get these radios talking to each other right out of the box. I have found people tend to use these radios right out of the box at the factory default settings like FRS bubble packs. You very likely may hear them on the default public talkgroups. If Target is using the 4-digit Profile ID Number (PIN) feature and set the PIN to something other than the 0000 default, then you are SOL and won't hear anything. My guess is they are using them like FRS bubble packs.

The local Costco Wholesale store near me uses DLRs at the factory defaults and I can hear them on my DTR650 and DTR700 radios when I'm in range. I purposely keep the default public talkgroups in my DTR programming so I can monitor for activity in my travels and to be able to talk to DTRs and DLRs outside my group if needed. I also have a few private talkgroups in my DTR programming so I can stay private when I want to. While technically not encrypted, the DTRs and DLRs can be made very secure.

I have achieved several miles of range with my DTRs and also with DLRs but I never got them to set any range records. My range record stands at 12 miles along the Florida Space Coast. My fleet of DTRs are my professional quality digital replacement for GMRS/FRS for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. A coworker once asked me why not just use FRS? My answer was that I have already been doing that since FRS was created in 1996 and longer than that as a GMRS licensee since 1992 and using top quality commercial gear. I want a 100% digital end to end solution that is higher quality and more professional than FRS. The DTRs and DLRs totally blow FRS away in range and performance and in some cases beats conventional UHF portables on simplex. They work amazingly well yet people keep underestimating them because of their 1W transmit power and 900MHz operation. Not having to worry about FCC licensing and being completely scanner proof come as bonuses.

The DLRs make perfect sense for retail type use and as a digital replacement for the CLS series. They make sense for the target market. DLR = Digital Lightweight Radio, according to Motorola.

 

[alcahuete]

My only question is why are these 900 mhz FHSS radios so expensive?

Just like anything /\/\otorola and business, nothing comes cheap.

 

[n1das]

So I'm guessing it's nothing like scanning even P25 or DMR radios? I'm walking through the store with an SDS100 and I have about an hour to chill.

If they are in fact using DLR radios, don't bother with the SDS100. You will get nothing, not even Close Call hits.

The DLRs and DTRs use a hopset of 50 frequencies spread out across the entire 902-928MHz band and transmit no longer than 90ms on any given frequency in the hopset. This works out to around 11 hops per second. Even if the FHSS were disabled and a DLR radio transmitted on a single frequency in the hopset, the occupied bandwidth of the signal is too wide for a narrowband receiver to accept. And then you would still need to decode the VSELP digital. The digital modulation on a given frequency in the hopset is according to an 8-level modulation scheme. The vocoder used is VSELP, what NEXTEL iDEN phones used back in the day.

If you happen to be listening to one of the frequencies in the hopset on the SDS100 and hold CSQ open on that channel, you may occasionally hear the noise floor briefly quiet for about 90ms while a DLR happened to be on that channel. That's about the most you will be able to hear.

Forget about trying to listen to them on a consumer grade receiver (i.e., scanner), because you can't.

Wikipedia article on FHSS:

Frequency-hopping spread spectrum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[n1das]

Motorola DTR radio on spectrum analyzer, looking at the 902-928MHz band:

 

[PACNWDude]

I had several schools contact me about radios that could not be picked up with a common scanner. My recommendation, as their UHF license had expired was to use Motorola DTR410's. This was a new radio at the time, and with only a few needing new batteries, they have worked extremely well for those schools. Range of the DTR410 is only a mile or so, as they have the shorter fixed antenna, but they are very secure as I did not leave the default settings in them. As n1das mentioned, I keep a few for my own use, and many people use them defaulted as FRS/GMRS replacements, and often port and maritime workers at nearby waterways can be heard using them as if they were truly encrypted.....with a lot of swearing and gossip being commonly heard. It is amazing what people will say when they thing their comms are only being heard by their own group of users.

 

[jaspence]

I did not intend my comparison to be factual, just an idea of how difficult trial and error is with the radios. I saw a pair of similar radios in action over 15 years ago by a friend that owns a commercial radio shop. They were much larger but just as secure.

 

[ecps92]

What do you consider "so expensive" ?? Pricing [via mr google] appears reasonable per unit

My only question is why are these 900 mhz FHSS radios so expensive?

 

[n1das]

I did not intend my comparison to be factual, just an idea of how difficult trial and error is with the radios. I saw a pair of similar radios in action over 15 years ago by a friend that owns a commercial radio shop. They were much larger but just as secure.

Could these radios have been the legacy DTR410/550/650 models?? The 410 came out in 2005 and the 550/650 models came out around 2006 according to their FCC ID grant dates. That's a year or so before the first iPhone came out. The legacy DTR410/550/650 models had a couple of firmware updates but stayed relatively unchanged until they were EOL'd on November 30, 2018. The last firmware update was in 2012. Support for the legacy DTRs ends on November 30, 2023. The DTR600/700 models are the replacements for the legacy DTRs.

The DLRs came out in July 2015. I had a pair of DLR1060 radios in late August 2015 and I had a small fleet of them later on. The DLRs have been around for 6 years now and appear to be gaining in popularity. The DLRs are backward compatible for the most part with the legacy DTRs and the DTR600/700 models. The DLRs look feature limited but are in fact very feature rich. At one time I had my fleet of DLR1060s working with my fleet of DTRs with a mix of public group channels, private group channels, and Profile ID channels. No programming is needed to use them right out of the box at the factory defaults. Motorola made it insanely easy to secure a fleet of DLRs with the 4 digit PIN feature and not need the CPS. Customization of features and settings requires the Motorola Business Radio CPS and is a free download. The CPS cable is around $35 on Amazon and programs all of Motorola's business radios except for the legacy DTRs which use a different cable.

The DLRs are amazing little radios. They make great "stealth" radios too because they are so d@mn small and smaller than most FRS bubble packs.

 

[n1das]

This reminds me of a funny but related story I have posted about in other DTR/DLR related threads.

I actually have had a case where a guy who knew what they were doing tried to listen to my wife and I when we were using our DTR radios at a ham flea market. He failed of course. LOL. This was at NEAR-fest at the fairgrounds in Deerfield, NH. My wife had gone to get food from one of the food vendors while I was still wandering around the fairgrounds. We were chitchatting on the DTRs to figure out where to meet up when a guy a table asked her what frequency we were using. Since she didn't know, she asked me over the DTR radio and said a guy at a table was asking her. I replied that they are FHSS digital radios operating in the 902-928MHz ISM band. The guy then said to her "Oh.....so THAT'S why I can't find you on my spectrum analyzer!!" LOL. He was expecting to see a strong narrowband emission pop up somewhere in the UHF part of the spectrum and remain there for the duration of each transmission. We were hiding in plain site with who knows how many other FHSS devices operating in the 902-928MHz band. We were also using a Private talkgroup programmed in our DTR radios so they are not monitorable by any other DTR and DLR radios in the area. One thing we know for sure is that no scanners were able to hear us that day. LOL.

We weren't trying to hide from anybody while using our DTRs. We simply wanted professional quality digital radio communications that are higher quality and more professional than FRS. Not having to worry about FCC licensing and being completely scanner proof comes as bonuses.

 

[HavenBTS]

So what is the difference between the DTR's discussed here the Trisquare eXRS that were sole about 15 years ago I believe?

 

[alcahuete]

The TriSquare radios were never any good. They were analog FM, compared to digital with the DTR/DLR, frequency hopped very slowly, and range suffered.

 

[HavenBTS]

The TriSquare radios were never any good. They were analog FM, compared to digital with the DTR/DLR, frequency hopped very slowly, and range suffered.

I didn't realize that they were analog. Thank you!

 

[HavenBTS]

One more question please.

Was the Direct Talk feature of Nextel 900 mhz frequency hopping and digital? I just want to be clear that I am asking about Direct Talk and not Direct Connect.