Technician privileges

[bill4long]

Why care? To better amateur radio as a whole.

I disagree that it would better amateur radio. [Shrug]

 

[WB9YBM]

They might learn something? So...without "learning something" they can use CW. But They can't use voice on the exact same bands? Hmmmmmm..... That's incredibly interesting.

"incredibly" interesting? Not just regularly interesting? How curious! (no--wait--I meant to say "interesting" and by that I mean "regularly interesting"--no need to get excited!)

 

[JerryX]

Why care? To better amateur radio as a whole. I personally feel the current privileges are silly. As I said, take the 40m privileges, for example. You can work CW on 40m as a Tech, but not 40m voice? I'm still curious as to why.

It's quite simple, really. It's an incentive to learn. A carrot on a stick, if you will. Give everyone the whole enchilada from the get-go and what you have is indistinguishable from CB. 10-4, good buddy?

 

[alcahuete]

"incredibly" interesting? Not just regularly interesting? How curious! (no--wait--I meant to say "interesting" and by that I mean "regularly interesting"--no need to get excited!)

So you don't actually have an answer to my question.

It's quite simple, really. It's an incentive to learn. A carrot on a stick, if you will. Give everyone the whole enchilada from the get-go and what you have is indistinguishable from CB. 10-4, good buddy?

I'll ask you the same I asked the other two who have no answer. An incentive to learn what exactly? Techs already have some privileges (CW) on various HF bands, and voice, digital, etc. on 10m. So what exactly do they learn by taking the General exam that magically gives them the know-how to use voice on those HF bands, instead of just CW?

Nobody has answered that yet. I'm still waiting for some specific examples of learning in the General exam that would somehow make people suddenly qualified to use voice on the HF bands where they only have CW privileges.

 

[AK9R]

I think what some of us would like to see is a form of apprenticeship. In other words, a licensing scheme that recognizes that a newly-licensed ham has gained some experience and can demonstrate proficiency before they proceed to higher licenses.

However, that's not practical. There is so much to amateur radio--what do you use as the basis for proficiency? I may be proficient at running a phone net on HF or contesting using RTTY, but I have no experience with satellite contacts or microwaves. Does that make me so un-proficient that I don't deserve an Extra class license?

Since we will probably never see a proficiency exam in amateur radio, we fall back to written tests that prove knowledge (or the ability to memorize).

We could go back to the old days when the Novice license was only good for one year. A new Novice was stuck making CW contacts using crystal-based transmitters. They either upgraded or they were done after one year. Is this a valid proficiency test?

What might be more palatable (to some) is a two-license scheme like I described a few messages ago and a stipulation that you have to wait a period of time with your Basic license before you upgrade to General. Is this a valid proficiency test?

As an aside, I know a guy who passed both the Technician and General tests this March. He's now making HF contacts using an antenna strung from his apartment balcony and running 1500 watts. He claims that he has to run high power otherwise he can't make contacts. I've also heard him talk about things he's done with his amplifier and the trouble he's had with his tuner. Frankly, he scares me because I don't think he understands RF exposure. Would an "apprenticeship" help a guy like this? Or, would his frustration drive him away from amateur radio?

 

[tweiss3]

I think what some of us would like to see is a form of apprenticeship. In other words, a licensing scheme that recognizes that a newly-licensed ham has gained some experience and can demonstrate proficiency before they proceed to higher licenses.

However, that's not practical. There is so much to amateur radio--what do you use as the basis for proficiency? I may be proficient at running a phone net on HF or contesting using RTTY, but I have no experience with satellite contacts or microwaves. Does that make me so un-proficient that I don't deserve an Extra class license?

Since we will probably never see a proficiency exam in amateur radio, we fall back to written tests that prove knowledge (or the ability to memorize).

We could go back to the old days when the Novice license was only good for one year. A new Novice was stuck making CW contacts using crystal-based transmitters. They either upgraded or they were done after one year. Is this a valid proficiency test?

What might be more palatable (to some) is a two-license scheme like I described a few messages ago and a stipulation that you have to wait a period of time with your Basic license before you upgrade to General. Is this a valid proficiency test?

As an aside, I know a guy who passed both the Technician and General tests this March. He's now making HF contacts using an antenna strung from his apartment balcony and running 1500 watts. He claims that he has to run high power otherwise he can't make contacts. I've also heard him talk about things he's done with his amplifier and the trouble he's had with his tuner. Frankly, he scares me because I don't think he understands RF exposure. Would an "apprenticeship" help a guy like this? Or, would his frustration drive him away from amateur radio?

That scares me. I do wish more people understood the RF Exposure evaluation guidelines/limits and how to apply them. 1500W hanging a wire off the balcony? Holy crap, talk about fried neighbors. And I was worried about 100W 6M/10M and making sure I got my antenna far enough away from the house and not hurting my kids.

Just sad & scary.

 

[alcahuete]

I think what some of us would like to see is a form of apprenticeship. In other words, a licensing scheme that recognizes that a newly-licensed ham has gained some experience and can demonstrate proficiency before they proceed to higher licenses.

That's kinda where the "Elmer System" comes into play. But the problem with that is the very attitude you see from people in this thread. There are SO many hams who just don't give a damn about helping the new guys, because they didn't take the same exams or know CW, etc. And this is all very off-putting to new hams. People are very patient here, but how many times have you seen a new ham ask a question over on QRZ or such, only to be blasted right off the forum? I have seen the exact same in clubs, because new hams just aren't in the clique, or whatever. We are really our own worst enemy when it comes to helping new people in our hobby.

Frankly, he scares me because I don't think he understands RF exposure.

Maybe, maybe not. Safe RF exposure limits are incredibly easy to attain on HF, even at the legal limit. Now if the neighbors are sitting out on the balcony next door while he is transmitting, there is most definitely an issue.

 

[KE0GXN]

That's kinda where the "Elmer System" comes into play. But the problem with that is the very attitude you see from people in this thread. There are SO many hams who just don't give a damn about helping the new guys, because they didn't take the same exams or know CW, etc. And this is all very off-putting to new hams. People are very patient here, but how many times have you seen a new ham ask a question over on QRZ or such, only to be blasted right off the forum? I have seen the exact same in clubs, because new hams just aren't in the clique, or whatever. We are really our own worst enemy when it comes to helping new people in our hobby.

Brand spanking new coming up on 5 year ham here and I don’t have problem with the current band or license structure. Like many of the old timers on here suggest, when the time came that I wanted more bandwidth, I studied, did my due diligence and upgraded accordingly. I don’t see what’s so wrong with that logic. I am also active as I can be with a very humble low power, comprised antenna station. Where this is a will, there is a way....

As far as Elmers, the last place some new guy needs to be going is the internet for Elmering. Again, if you are truly interested in ham radio, you will seek out in-person Elmering like I did, its not impossible, however much to this new generation’s disappointment, “true” Elmering will require face to face communication with another human being. No forum or amount of YouTube videos can substitute for that.

As far as QRZ, I am and have been an active participant there since I got my ticket and have yet to be blasted off of there by anyone. Problem is you got newbies that get on there and want to pop off when they don’t feel they have been treated fairly for some reason or or another. The Mods there to an extent allow folks to get dealt with and are not in the practice of micro-moderating and what not. I have had no issues there as a new ham. I enjoy hanging out there and I like the fact that you are at least interacting with verified hams, unlike other forums where you have no idea if anyone is legit. With that said, if you are the type to get your feelings hurt easily or like a forum that employs strict moderation, then its not probably the forum for you and I’ll just leave it at that.

Also, I am all about growing the hobby with people who actually want to be in the hobby and have a desire to learn and be active and at least put forth a little effort. These folks that want to get a ticket because they think its cool to have a Baofeng in their zombie bag or want to chit chat with the off-road Jeep posse are not helping the hobby and no amount of “gifted” HF privileges are going to suddenly make them want to throw a wire in tree and have a rag chew with you on 40 meters or seek out a club or join the League or contribute in anyway to amateur radio.

Finally, I will reiterate I see nothing wrong with the current license structure or the current band privilege allocation. It has not inhibited me from enjoying this hobby one bit. If anything it has made it more interesting and engaging to me. During my journey, I always felt I had something to shoot for and earn and now that I am done upgrading, I am enjoying the fruits of my labor to the fullest extent my current station allows.

In sum.....If a zero electronics/engineering background person like me can do it.....anyone can.

 

[bill4long]

Simple question: if you're a Tech reading this and you want HF privileges (beyond 10m),
why don't you study a little and take the General test now?

Any Techs out here want to answer that?

Techs only. Thanks.

 

[WB9YBM]

Nobody has answered that yet. I'm still waiting for some specific examples of learning in the General exam that would somehow make people suddenly qualified to use voice on the HF bands where they only have CW privileges.

Each license upgrade covers additional questions on technical aspects of radio communication, rules/regs, etc. THAT is what's being learned (assuming that someone actually takes the time to study it, and not just memorizes the answers to regurgitate them on a test).

Aside from that: I'd be willing to bet if we would've taken the time and effort spent on this discussion and applied it with equal enthusiasm on studying, a whole bunch of us would've passed our top-end license exam by now (I wonder which way our time would've been better spent?)

 

[JerryX]

Nobody has answered that yet. I'm still waiting for some specific examples of learning in the General exam that would somehow make people suddenly qualified to use voice on the HF bands where they only have CW privileges.

Unfortunately, as things stand now lots (most?) people taking the exams haven't learned anything. They pass the tests through rote memorization and I'd be very surprised if they remember any of it a week later.

I'd like to see people actually study and learn the material rather than just memorize the answers to the test questions. I don't see this happening in our instant gratification culture, however.

I got my license when I was in college. I wasn't an EE major, but learned the material by looking up the beginning RF design course in the college catalog and buying the textbook for the course at the campus bookstore. I read the book and worked all of the problems and in a month was ready to take the ham exam. Of course, I also had to learn things like the rules and band assignments, but that wasn't difficult as I also had the current ARRL Handbook. Now all of the local clubs have a "get your ham license in one day" classes and I doubt anybody comes out of one of these with any real knowledge.

 

[K9DWB]

FWIW I have been involved in different things about radio for many years. No this is not just turning on the AM/FM radio to listen to talk radio or music of some sort.

I never got to learn anything there due to an honorable medical discharge from a back injury before I even got to basic training, but I'd enlisted in the PA Army National Guard in 1986 in the Communications field. And as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, I used to drive tractor trailers with a CB I installed myself. There's about 8 years of doing something with a radio. When I took the Technician and General exams within the past few months, electrical safety and most antenna questions were known beforehand from past experiences.

I don't have any opinions on how to modify exams or ham license privileges. I don't really know if any changes would really benefit Amateur radio in any way.

 

[buddrousa]

Simple question: if you're a Tech reading this and you want HF privileges (beyond 10m),
why don't you study a little and take the General test now?

Any Techs out here want to answer that?

Techs only. Thanks.

I am a TECH and if I want more then I will study and earn it but as it stands right now I do not want any upgrades.

 

[W5lz]

They would. They earn it by passing the initial test.

The key words here are "initial test", which tells me that if you want more privileges, then learn/earn them. That's where 'incentive' comes in. That's how everything works. Think about it.

 

[alcahuete]

The key words here are "initial test", which tells me that if you want more privileges, then learn/earn them. That's where 'incentive' comes in. That's how everything works. Think about it.

Thought about it. Still have the same opinion. Again, not a single person has answered my questions. It seems nobody wants to.

1) How is 10m plus CW on a handful of HF bands an incentive?
2) What exact material on the General exam would give people the sudden technical ability to operate voice on certain HF bands instead of just CW?

Again, if there is no technical ability gained by taking the General exam, then why are we limiting people? Of course, it's just because we want to. You can have some lowly tech. below you and it somehow makes those above feel better about themselves. That's literally all it is.

 

[WB9YBM]

1) How is 10m plus CW on a handful of HF bands an incentive? For those people who insist they must gain access to everything, it's an incentive. (Personally I think in a few cases it might just be an ego trip). I've also heard some DX stations do the majority of their operating in the band segments set aside in the United States for Extra Class operators (to avoid pile-ups, possibly?)
2) What exact material on the General exam would give people the sudden technical ability to operate voice on certain HF bands instead of just CW? The "exact material" being that which is not covered by lower class license exams.

 

[WB9YBM]

Unfortunately, as things stand now lots (most?) people taking the exams haven't learned anything. They pass the tests through rote memorization and I'd be very surprised if they remember any of it a week later.

I'd like to see people actually study and learn the material rather than just memorize the answers to the test questions. I don't see this happening in our instant gratification culture, however.

I know what you mean: I once bumped into a guy with an Extra Class license--he was even bragging about it--and he called all amplifiers "linears" and didn't know they're not all linear. Classic example of someone memorizing by rote instead of learning what's really going on. This guy got a good amount of teasing about his mistake (and no, not from me).

 

[alcahuete]

For those people who insist they must gain access to everything, it's an incentive.

So why give them any HF privileges at all? Forcing them to learn CW to get a taste of what HF has to offer is silly. Again, 100 years ago, that would have been fine. It's not anymore.

The "exact material" being that which is not covered by lower class license exams.

And what exact material is that? Do you have any specific examples for me? They can already use CW on HF. They can already use voice on 10m. So it would seem to me that all the needed skills were already taught on the Technician exam, no? We surely aren't going to turn someone loose on HF without the appropriate skills.

 

[AK9R]

I think the reason Technicians are allowed to operate CW on HF is because those privileges were carried over from the Novice privileges.

Remember that before the code requirement was dropped from the Technician class, you started out with a CW test and an Element 1 written exam which could be given by two Generals outside of a VE session. That qualified you for a Novice license and you could operate CW on 80, 40, 15m but your only VHF/UHF privileges were on the 220 MHz and 1.2 GHz bands. Then you took the Element 2 written exam at a VE session which qualified you for a Technician license. You retained the Novice privileges and gained all of VHF/UHF.

Eventually, the CW test was removed from Technician (though I think it remained for Novice) and if you passed Elements 1 and 2, you qualified for Technician license, but you had no HF privileges unless you took a CW test which got you the short-lived Technician Plus license. The FCC then stopped issuing new Novice licenses, the NCVEC was asked to combine the Element 1 and 2 question pools, the Technician Plus license disappeared, and Techs were allowed all of the previous Novice and Technician privileges.

I haven't looked at the current Element 2 question pool, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that almost all of the HF-related questions, except for operating limits, have been removed from the pool. As a result, the only exposure Techs get to HF operating is if they learn CW and go operate in their small slivers of the HF bands.

I still say that we just need two classes: Basic with all privileges at 100 watts, General with all privileges. Quit screwing around with five license classes (Novice, Technician, General, Advanced, Extra are all still valid licenses even though new Novice and Advanced licenses haven't been issued for years) and whacky 4-level band plans (on some HF bands).

 

[alcahuete]

I think the reason Technicians are allowed to operate CW on HF is because those privileges were carried over from the Novice privileges.

You are absolutely correct. And the Novice privileges made at least a little sense, because there was a CW test. You already had to learn CW to get your license, so those privileges actually gave you something worthwhile, and an actual incentive to upgrade. If they did things the right way, they would have given voice privileges when they introduced the Tech. license.

I still say that we just need two classes: Basic with all privileges at 100 watts, General with all privileges. Quit screwing around with five license classes (Novice, Technician, General, Advanced, Extra are all still valid licenses even though new Novice and Advanced licenses haven't been issued for years) and whacky 4-level band plans (on some HF bands).

That works for me. But then some of these crusty Extras only have one class of amateurs to be better than instead of two.