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The 102-inch whip in a perfect world and the real world

prcguy

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Jun 30, 2006
Messages
11,174
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So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
Yes the old AS/1729 antenna was a center fed ground independent antenna with a switchable matching network. The next generation for SINCGARS had just a whip with an attenuator in the base for matching and didn't work as well. Most of the current broad band 30-512MHz whips have multiple elements or traps to cover the wide range without too much loss.


pcrguy,

Back in the dark ages the 30-70 tactical vhf low band antennas that were about 8 feet long with the automatic band switching matching units at the base didn't need ground planes. They were half wave antennas. No idea what the current ones are.
 

trentbob

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
3,132
Location
Bristol, Pa.
I drilled one of those whips into a truck bed and yes, it had three mounting holes at 120 degree spacing and a center hole for a hollow bolt and nut that the coax went through.
Of course oh, what was I thinking. It's three holes for the mount but I forgot about the hole I had to drill in the middle of the three holes to run the coax so it was indeed a total of 4 holes. I stand corrected :p

So original poster, I hope you don't drill four holes in the roof of your car. It's your call, but it's your car too. LOL.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2013
Messages
4,616
snip

Edit:
I had forgotten this picture was taken after I sold the vehicle and borrowed it back to do some antenna testing for a day. It never looked this clean when I had it.

View attachment 100298
1615342035580.jpeg
I don't care how much I pay (Too much, Magic Bus)
I wanna drive my bus to my baby each day (Too much, Magic Bus)
I want it, I want it, I want it, I want it ... (You can't have it!)
Thruppence and sixpence every day
Just to drive to my baby
Thruppence and sixpence each day
'Cause I drive my baby every way
Magic Bus, Magic Bus, Magic Bus ...
 

prcguy

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
11,174
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
I must admit that was one bad a$$ mofo vehicle and I miss it a lot. If I still had it I would stick a Cummins 6BT turbo diesel in with Allison 6 speed trans plus newer multiband radios. And more antennas. And dump the roof rack and add a slant back, yada yada.

View attachment 100307
I don't care how much I pay (Too much, Magic Bus)
I wanna drive my bus to my baby each day (Too much, Magic Bus)
I want it, I want it, I want it, I want it ... (You can't have it!)
Thruppence and sixpence every day
Just to drive to my baby
Thruppence and sixpence each day
'Cause I drive my baby every way
Magic Bus, Magic Bus, Magic Bus ...
 

devicelab

Whacker Extraordinaire
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
898
Location
Bothell, WA
As for bumper mounting or ball mounts way down low, that really degrades performance but if you were to mount any other kind of shortened loaded antenna down there its going to work worse than the 9ft whip. A 9ft whip on the bumper of a sedan will outperform something like a 2ft or 3ft shortened antenna on a trunk lid and will outperform a 2ft or 3ft whip on the roof in one direction, but the short roof mount will provide a more consistent 360deg pattern and will approach the 9ft bumper mount off to the sides and to the rear. When you get into the 4ft length antennas in the center of the roof they will start to outperform a 9ft bumper mounted antenna in all directions. A 9ft bumper mounted antenna will have the best pattern towards the most metal on the vehicle which is the front.
Sorry I'm late to this one but yep, I can confirm that it's the biggest problem. I have a high quality Breedlove mount (QD ball) mounted into the rear quarter-panel of my Durango and while it works OK I can get get better "performance" with a hamstick and a Diamond K400 mount that's mounted at roof-line. Receiving is about the same but my transmit performance is way better with the latter setup. My QD ball mount is slightly higher than the bumper but not by much.

When I had HF in my Durango full-time, I would bend the 10ft whip over and tie it down to the luggage rack. That actually worked surprisingly well for receiving HF. Transmit seemed very hit or miss.

Breedlove Mount -- worth every penny for the quality!

 
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prcguy

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Messages
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So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
The Breedlove ball looks awfully small on those. I prefer the high end Motorola ball mount made for the Mobat HF series. Its got a decent size ball and machined Delrin insulator and adequate size stainless backing plate. The Delrin insulator protrudes well past the hole in the sheet metal to reduce the chance of high power arc over. They come with a great SS spring that you just can't find anywhere these days and I think the Motorola costs more than the Breedlove. This one is going on a new Jeep Gladiator Mojave soon.

1615348399620.png

Sorry I'm late to this one but yep, I can confirm that it's the biggest problem. I have a high quality Breedlove mount (QD ball) mounted into the rear quarter-panel of my Durango and while it works OK I can get get better "performance" with a hamstick and a Diamond K400 mount that's mounted at roof-line. Receiving is about the same but my transmit performance is way better with the latter setup. My QD ball mount is slightly higher than the bumper but not by much.

When I had HF in my Durango full-time, I would bend the 10ft whip over and tie it down to the luggage rack. That actually worked surprisingly well for receiving HF. Transmit seemed very hit or miss.

Breedlove Mount -- worth every penny for the quality!

 
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redbeard

OH, PA, WV Regional Admin
Database Admin
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698
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Jefferson County, OH
I don't spend any time worrying about what someone else sitting in traffic thinks of my vehicle because it has antennas mounted to it. At the same time I wouldn't be one of those guys who puts a Tarheel on a Corvette either.

I prefer the high end Motorola ball mount made for the Mobat HF series.
Can you still get those new? I used to prefer the grey ones meant for VHF-Lo installs but that looks even better. I was going to buy a Breedlove but I'd give one of those Mobats a try.
 

prcguy

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
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Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
They may be available through Motorola dealers but they were expensive, close to $200 I think. I found two on Ebay for reasonable prices, I forget the exact price but under $50. The part # on the box is TRN4505A and its for the Mobat/Micom HF SSB series radios.

I don't spend any time worrying about what someone else sitting in traffic thinks of my vehicle because it has antennas mounted to it. At the same time I wouldn't be one of those guys who puts a Tarheel on a Corvette either.


Can you still get those new? I used to prefer the grey ones meant for VHF-Lo installs but that looks even better. I was going to buy a Breedlove but I'd give one of those Mobats a try.
 

ai8o

Electron Wrangler
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
258
Location
Lexington, NC
For god sakes, don't drill three holes and mount it on the roof of your car. :LOL:
This reminded me of the 1960/70s OPP(Ontario Provincial Police) cars.

They did exactly that, and a 1/4 wavelength 42 MHz whip antenna with a 6 inch spring right smack dab in the middle of their patrol cars.
Three insulator bolt holes, and a big center hole for the pass thru of the RF carrier spring bolt.

The 7 foot antenna combo on top of a 4 foot car meant the antenna tip was 11 feet off the ground.

Trees? What trees? Did my antenna hit your tree?
 
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devicelab

Whacker Extraordinaire
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
898
Location
Bothell, WA
The Breedlove ball looks awfully small on those. I prefer the high end Motorola ball mount made for the Mobat HF series. Its got a decent size ball and machined Delrin insulator and adequate size stainless backing plate.
Yeah that Motorola looks pretty beefy. The Breedlove comes in two sizes and I own the larger size. It's very high quality and also comes with a Delrin insulator. With the 102" whip installed it does a very good job on CB and readily tunes 40M or higher.

My only complaint about the Breedlove is that it doesn't come in black! ;o)
 

DiGiTaLD

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Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
752
I know PRCGuy has used the Laird CW27w and he reports very positive results, also it has more usable bandwidth than the Larid CB27 and the Larsen NMO-27, which is beneficial that are working a bit outside the CB rules or want to use 10 meters. If I needed a new CB antenna, I'd probably give one of those a try just for comparison. But my 30 year old Larsen is still going fine and I don't have a need to replace it.
I second the Larsen NMO-27. I have one hard-mounted on the roof of my truck for CB. Another alternative antenna I've found for CB is the Browning (Tram) BR-140. I have one hard-mounted on one of my cars and it is a great performer. It is probably not as well-built as the Larsen NMO-27 but I have it on a garage queen that rarely if ever sees rain so I'm not really worried about that.
 

W8WCA

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Jun 1, 2005
Messages
309
Location
Columbus, OH
Back in the day I used to Use a K40 (not sure if they are still made) but I matched it up and it did a pretty good job
 

FPR1981

Active Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
547
Back in the day I used to Use a K40 (not sure if they are still made) but I matched it up and it did a pretty good job
Not only are they still made, but I don't think they've changed or evolved at all. Granted, they have a decent product, but there hasn't been a whole lot of innovation out of them since the beginning. They kind of rested on their laurels.
 

JayMojave

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Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
716
Location
Mojave Ca
Yeah the 102 inch whip 1/4 wave antenna beats them all, that is the shorter antennas. From field testing the different antennas while looking at a Spectrum Analyzer and trying many different antennas the 1/4 wave 102 inch or 96 inch fiber glass antenna always nosed ahead of the shorter antennas. Yeah what PRC Guy said......again.

This testing was 20 miles away from the receiving station in a flat lands of the Mojave Desert away from man kind or women. In a cold cold desert wind and without my jacket I tried all the different antennas, and even repeated the test with the receiving crew enjoying my misery of being froozen to death. As I repeated the second antenna comparison field strength antenna tests, I did not tell the other end what antenna was tested at the time to verify the testing accuracy. While their audio was that of eating with their mouth full and telling me how good the Pizza and Beer was these second test were performed. What great guys!

My luxury 44 year old Ford Truck has a custom made fiber glass 96 inch whip antenna with 8 gauge silver plated wire in the center, mounted on a large spring on top of the cab. Yeah it gets out pretty well with just a little fire in da wire. Yeah it hits every low lying cable TV wire and such and a loud bang can be heard in the Cab of the truck when the antenna does hit something, but this is the price of "gettin out" CB performance.

I to have Honda Pilot, just use a magnet mount with coax coming from the back door it don't leak so I am good to go.

Jay in the Great Mojave Desert.... :Next Gas 150 Miles:
 

mrweather

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Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,075
This reminded me of the 1960/70s OPP(Ontario Provincial Police) cars.

They did exactly that, and a 1/4 wavelength 42 MHz whip antenna with a 6 inch spring right smack dab in the middle of their patrol cars.
Three insulator bolt holes, and a big center hole for the pass thru of the RF carrier spring bolt.
I grew up in Southwestern Ontario and remember OPP cruisers with those antennas. And they were using low band right up until around 1989. Was the antenna actually mounted to the roof or to the light bar?

They used to run 100 watt GE Rangr's so I'm guess the antenna needed to be pretty stout.
 
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FPR1981

Active Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
547
If I decide to order a Stryker SR-A10 magnet mount antenna, would any of the guys on here who are not big fans of magnet mount antennas be interested in having me drop ship it to you for testing against one of your better permanently-mounted Larsens, or against a 102 whip? I'd love to see it compared head to head against those, by someone who doesn't really care much for mag mounts.

At the end of the testing, I'd pay for shipping back to me.

The odds I'll have anything with a 102 whip, or a permanent-mount Larsen, are pretty slim to none or I'd do the experiment myself.
 

FPR1981

Active Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
547
One time years ago, I had a Chevy Malibu that had a magnet mount on the trunk, a cellular style antenna on the rear window and a VHF antenna in the center for my business two-way Motorola radio. One of my co-workers came outside and said, "Good God! Sumbich has more antennas than the Highway Patrol!"
 

smason

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I haven't cared about CB in a long time, not even sure there's any activity around here.
But this thread brought back some memories.
In '77 I had a '66 Chevy Biscayne. I put a 102" fibreglass whip on the rear (just in front of the trunk lid)
Man, it performed well! And I could find my car in any mall parking lot :)
 

FiveFilter

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Jan 1, 2016
Messages
285
I've seen a lot of casual antenna-performance comparisons on the Internet through the years, and the general results were that, inch-for-antenna-inch, the magnet-mounted antennas were as effective as those permanently mounted in a hole. The key seems to be the antenna length and where it is placed on the car, the best generally being in the middle of the roof. This is one recent example I ran into:

"Magnetic mounts (good quality ones anyway) have little significance on an antenna's performance, just as the Larsen PDF illustrates: a tiny loss of 0.2 dB with a magnetic antenna vs a permanently mounted antenna. That paper also states the minimum amount of effective ground plane needed for several frequencies; but, of course, CB @ 27MHz will require much more ground plane than 150MHz will, making it all the more detrimental to the signal pattern to have it on the fender of the vehicle instead of the roof. I've seen it many times in the real world too, where I could clearly hear a buddy of mine who has a magnetic roof-mounted antenna, but signals from others who had various non-roof-mounted antennas (most being non-magnetic) were not even detectable."
 
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