The AOR AR-DV1 vs. The Scan New England Bunker

[KC1UA]

VHF-HI Band Test

Target: Hauppage NY on Long Island - Suffolk County Sheriff
Distance: 156.9 Miles
Frequency: 155.685 MHz
Antenna: Comet GP-15 at approx 160 feet above sea level
Receivers:

• AOR AR-DV1
• Airspy SDR
• NetSDR with VHF/UHF converter
• Icom IC-R7100

Again I must say that the DV1 hangs right in there with the rest of the receivers. Conditions seem to be improving tonight; most of this is a water route but nice to have the opportunity to try a little DX.


Once again, as reported ad nauseum, not a snowball's chance in hell at getting any CTCSS info out of this thing. Excellent decode through the discriminator output. As far as just receiving the distant signal I can't say the DV1 is not noticeably any better or any worse than any of the other test receivers.


A good forthcoming test will be to see how the DV1 handles adjacent channel interference. The NetSDR, Airspy, and IC-R7100 all do a very nice job with this.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

New Firmware v1506C posted at AOR for Scott to try.
Firmware Updates | Download Area | Support | AOR U.S.A., INC. Authority On Radio Communications

73 Eric

 

[KC1UA]

I completed the firmware flash. It is easy and painless provided you have the means to transfer the file to an SD card on a PC, which obviously I do. This doesn't seem like the ideal way to do it although it is simple. I can understand that software writers may be holding off to see how things go with this receiver. So I'm up to 1506c but I really don't see (or could be missing) anything on the list that makes this anything but a minor enhancement. However it is proof that AOR is working, albeit after the fact, to address issues.

With that in mind, my main issues thus far:

1. If you're providing CTCSS and DCS search modes, why not display the discovered tone on the display...or is this yet to be implemented? If it's yet to be implemented, why are we not being told about this? This firmware flash indicates features that are being enabled. Why would these features be advertised if they are not yet implemented? This is a serious head scratcher; boot me in the keyster if I'm overlooking something, please!

2. Ditto for at least some basic info from the available digital modes. If there is a means to display CTCSS and DCS tones, why not a NAC for P25? Why not at least a TG ID for NXDN and/or DMR.

Onward and upward we go. I will try to provide a few more reports tonight; due to life and work schedule my reports may be sporadic or semi-non-existent over the weekend.

 

[KC1UA]

460 MHz side by side test

Target: Boston Police Department
Distance: Approximately 58 miles
Frequency: Various 460 MHz
Antenna: Comet GP-15 at approx 160 feet above sea level
Receivers:

• AOR AR-DV1
• Airspy SDR
• NetSDR with VHF/UHF converter
• Icom IC-R7100

Well folks, I think we have a winner here, and it is the DV1! This receiver apparently loves the 460 MHz UHF band as it is superior to its competitors on all Boston PD frequencies, offering of any of them the cleanest sounding signal.

 

[KC1UA]

CTCSS and DCS Tones Showing!

Well it seems an unadvertised update in the latest firmware has made CTCSS and DCS decoding work. When showing both VFO A and B on the display, the tone appears on the non-selected VFO line when a signal is present. This is a step in the right direction....but...

...if I hit Function and 1, and select SQL type as CTCSS, even if I'm in search mode, I will NOT HEAR a signal with DCS at all. I know Boston PD uses DCS. As soon as I made the switch from "CTC" to "DCS" the audio for the signal showed up and the tone was displayed. But to compound the problem...it's not showing the right DCS tone for BPD on 460.500, which should be D351. It showed "537" instead.

This is a considerable step in the right direction, but AOR, you need to have an AUTO mode for tone squelch so we can have both CTCSS and DCS tones appear when discovered. And....add NAC for P25 at the very least.

 

[KC1UA]

DCS tones are way off, beyond even what appears to be the "normal" vs. "reverse" polarity. CTCSS tones are spot on and there on weak signals.

 

[KC1UA]

Final report of the night; AUTO mode for digital signals is definitely improved under this firmware update. It was pretty much not working at all before but has identified and decoded both P25 and DMR signals for me quite nicely.

Speaking of P25, it would appear that the DV1 has no problem with decoding trunked P25 signals...obviously in "conventional" mode.

 

[KC1UA]

First opportunity to listen to NXDN on the DV1 this morning. It shows as D-CR on the display. The digital AUTO mode of the receiver found it and produced some very good quality audio on one of the channels of a local Nexedge 4800 system.

So close but yet so far. The digital audio quality of this receiver is quite good. AOR has to find a way to at least provide some viewable data from digital signals. Maybe there will never be trunking capability with this thing, but it would be nice at some point if third party software could be written for it for monitoring such systems. I can surely use the discriminator tap as the output for a DSD+ setup, but then that's for the control channel and I'm listening to the system via a RTL dongle. Why use a $1200 receiver to do that when I can use another $10 dongle?

 

[jcardani]

Hi Scott,

Was the Nexedge 4800 system that you received trunked or conventional?

thanks

 

[KC1UA]

Hi Scott,

Was the Nexedge 4800 system that you received trunked or conventional?

thanks

Hi Joe,

It's a four frequency trunked system. So, the experience is both positive and negative. The audio quality is excellent. The fact that at that point I'm all done because I can't DO anything else with the fact that I'm decoding NXDN is frustrating.

A step in the right direction would be to at the very least display some further information pertinent to the signal being received, on the same line where the receiver now properly displays CTCSS and at least tries to display DCS tones. The "killer app" would be trunking.

I know I commented about "receivers vs. scanners" in other threads but now that I have this receiver in front of me listening to these digital modes and not being able to do a darn thing with them....well, you know the rest!

I have forwarded my suggestions to AOR. It is my understanding that they are listening with open ears, although I believe that Dr. Sherman stated somewhere that in conversation with Taka he was led to believe there would not be any trunk tracking capability added.

 

[jcardani]

Hi Scott,

Thanks! Good news that its confirmed it can receive both conventional and trunked Nexedge 4800. Software such as Eric C's WinDSD has the logic already for trunked Nexedge and Cap+/Con+ systems and it should not be too much trouble to add the functionality to remotely change channels. That is if the control protocol supports it. The only issue I can see with the DMR trunking is how to segregate the voice time slots.

 

[KC1UA]

It also was receiving trunked P25 transmissions last night during a band opening to Maine from here, so that's encouraging as well. That's the MSCommNet System I'm referring to.

Hi Scott,

Thanks! Good news that its confirmed it can receive both conventional and trunked Nexedge 4800. Software such as Eric C's WinDSD has the logic already for trunked Nexedge and Cap+/Con+ systems and it should not be too much trouble to add the functionality to remotely change channels. That is if the control protocol supports it. The only issue I can see with the DMR trunking is how to segregate the voice time slots.

 

[AA6IO]

I know I commented about "receivers vs. scanners" in other threads but now that I have this receiver in front of me listening to these digital modes and not being able to do a darn thing with them....well, you know the rest!

Scott,
Thanks for your comments about the AR-DV1. This was my experience and sentiments after 2 weeks. Here are all these signals, but 1) I could not get any information about them (unless I ran the disc tap into DSD+), and 2) I could not get to them fast enough because of too slow search/scan.
I figured this could be addressed in future firmware and discussed it with Taka at AOR. Taka was very receptive, but then announced but "Our president says this is a wideband receiver and not a scanner." Then he said he might buy a 536HP. Now maybe I'm wrong, but this seems to say to me that "What you get is what you get. We will address the issues we promised in firmware updates. But don't look for data decoding info or other scanner like features."
Therefore, I felt that there was little I could do after a few weeks of beta-testing. Your comment "so near but yet so far" seems to sum up my feelings.
If functioning sofware by Eric and/or Gommert at Butel becomes available, this would go a long way towared increasing the usefulness of this receiver. But with the few actual sales, I don't know if that will actually happen. This is a different radio world now with the "SDR cat well out of the bag." Again, Scott, thanks for the test results.

 

[AA6IO]

One other comment. I never had any problem with either conventional or trunked P25 or NXDN in terms of decode. The problem was in Los Angeles, some trunked system VC channels change pretty fast. We have quite a bit of NXDN activity in the 450-452 Mhz range, but most is trunked and the VCs change quickly. With fast enough searching (which I can do with a tapped 996XT running into DSD+), you can pick up the VCs fairly fast and start decoding again. The AR-DV1 just was not able to move fast enough to do this.
Steve

 

[vince48]

I know I commented about "receivers vs. scanners" in other threads but now that I have this receiver in front of me listening to these digital modes and not being able to do a darn thing with them....well, you know the rest!

Scott,
Thanks for your comments about the AR-DV1. This was my experience and sentiments after 2 weeks. Here are all these signals, but 1) I could not get any information about them (unless I ran the disc tap into DSD+), and 2) I could not get to them fast enough because of too slow search/scan.
I figured this could be addressed in future firmware and discussed it with Taka at AOR. Taka was very receptive, but then announced but "Our president says this is a wideband receiver and not a scanner." Then he said he might buy a 536HP. Now maybe I'm wrong, but this seems to say to me that "What you get is what you get. We will address the issues we promised in firmware updates. But don't look for data decoding info or other scanner like features."
Therefore, I felt that there was little I could do after a few weeks of beta-testing. Your comment "so near but yet so far" seems to sum up my feelings.
If functioning sofware by Eric and/or Gommert at Butel becomes available, this would go a long way towared increasing the usefulness of this receiver. But with the few actual sales, I don't know if that will actually happen. This is a different radio world now with the "SDR cat well out of the bag." Again, Scott, thanks for the test results.

sshermanmd and Scott
Hank you both for excellent write up's and being spokesmen for our hobby community. Both of you have saved me $1,200 + tax + shipping. I will not be purchasing this unit. Sad that AOR would market such a half baked radio.

vince48

 

[KC1UA]

sshermanmd and Scott
Hank you both for excellent write up's and being spokesmen for our hobby community. Both of you have saved me $1,200 + tax + shipping. I will not be purchasing this unit. Sad that AOR would market such a half baked radio.

vince48

I can tell you that it's going to be very hard for me to purchase it as well, as it stands right now. I'm game for a few more firmware updates as long as Jeff allows it, but it's a lot of $$ to spend indeed.

Software such as Eric C's WinDSD has the logic already for trunked Nexedge and Cap+/Con+ systems and it should not be too much trouble to add the functionality to remotely change channels. That is if the control protocol supports it. The only issue I can see with the DMR trunking is how to segregate the voice time slots.

This would surely help, and if anyone can do it Eric can, but with that in mind it eliminates much of the transportability of a receiver this size. I don't think that it'll be enough to tip the scales for me. Really, after sitting with this receiver for 5 days there is a definite "like-hate" relationship developing.

And Steve, our comments mirror one an-others to be certain. Without a shift in this line of thinking it's almost certain that I'll send this one back to Jeff. One concern is that because there would likely be so few out there any support might be kicked to the curb because lack of volume out there. I don't want to be stuck with something that when I try to sell it (and with me it's usually a matter of when, not a matter of if) I take a major hit because there is not any market for it, or I can't sell it at all.

All of this said I am looking forward to some further testing as I can and hopefully a few more firmware updates. I find it interesting that the update I applied the other day has features that now work, yet were unadvertised as fixes or enhancements.

 

[KC1UA]

As I sit here this afternoon, I have three "receivers" running.

1. RFSpace NetSDR being controlled by SDR Console, sending audio out the Virtual Audio Cable to both KG-Tone for CTCSS/DCS decoding and analog audio recovery, and also sending that same unfiltered audio to DSD+ 1.080t for digital mode decoding.

2. Airspy being controlled by SDR# software, which has plug-ins for decoding CTCSS and DCS, and a plug-in to start up and run DSD+ for digital mode decoding.

3. AOR AR-DV1.

I have to make a personal conclusion at this point. I have become a "SDR guy". There is so much capability here it's incredible, and this is only the beginning of SDR's for this hobby. The audio I recover via DSD+ is exceptional in quality, and the DSD+ live view event log shows detailed talkgroup, radio ID, alias, and other information. With this "Fast Lane" release of DSD+ I can easily set up trunk tracking of at least NXDN and DMR systems by simply adding a dongle and running another instance of the DSD+ software.

Barring some amazing epiphany by AOR in the next few days, I have to conclude that there is simply no way I will be purchasing the AOR AR-DV1 receiver. It is a shame, as it is proof that a hobby level radio CAN contain all of the digital modes that those of us that monitor want to listen to. Beyond that it just comes up so short at this point in time given the restrictions that have been outlined ad nauseum in this and other threads.

But it CAN be done, and this receiver is the first to do so. Now, come on Uniden and Whistler, and ????....get off your butts and get to work on something that can include these modes and correctly trunk track them.

Obviously my aforementioned SDR setups do not offer a lot in the way of portability, although it can be done with a good quality laptop to some extent. The size of the AOR AR-DV1 would have made it a great choice for "transportable" use. Until and unless AOR gives in and adds the features we have spoken of at great length though, I can't see many of these going out the door.

Are there any other tests that anyone would like me to run? I know the HF test was one and I'll try to do that over the next day or so. Clearly, as a receiver, this model has done quite nicely as far as keeping up with other modern technology and a classic (the R7100), at least in my particular setup. Just those other glaring shortcomings make me conclude that I won't be spending $1200 on it.

 

[AA6IO]

Scott,
Thanks again for the review. I guess I really need to spend more time learning to use all the SDR software available. I see quite a few folks playing with DSD+ 1.080. I also am signed up for the "Fastlane" program and support the DSD+ cause. I just need to spend more time learning about all the intricate aspects of these wonderful SDR programs. I never even heard of KG-Tone until you posted it here. One thing, I thought the RFSpace NetSDR went to 32 Mhz. What CTCSS/DCS tones are you decoding?
However, I have come to the same conclusion. I am also an SDR guy. Perhaps "waanabe SDR guy" is a better term. I have spent quite a bit of time with Perseus and ELAD FDM-S2, but don't really have much proficiency with the VHF/UHF digital modes and software available. I do have AirSpy, HackRF, and SDRPlay, so guess I should spend more time really becoming proficient with all the features of something like DSD+ 1.080, programs like KG-Tone, frequency manager plug-ins, etc.
I guess in the end, there is nothing wrong with AOR making a radio like the AR-DV1. For some folks, they may find it useful, although at $1200, I don't know how many. It is not just about price. It's that you can obviously do so much more.
I have playing with radio since age 12 back in 1961, and what floats my boat now and keeps my interest fresh and renewed is the amazing use of computer technology and radio. There is no going back for me, evidently, for you, and probably not for a lot of people. Thanks again Scott.

 

[n2pqq]

First off thank you for sharing your findings
with us.

As to point 3 above ; could you not run dsd plus
thru the the back of the aor dv1.
Add the dongle and you have the same results.

Also switching between the aor and dsd plus you
could compare audio of digital signals.

A final question , when radio decodes a digital
Signal does it display what it is ?
DRM ,Dstar ect.

 

[KC1UA]

Scott,
I never even heard of KG-Tone until you posted it here. One thing, I thought the RFSpace NetSDR went to 32 Mhz. What CTCSS/DCS tones are you decoding?

When using SDR-Console, to properly simulate "discriminator tap" type audio you need to run the software in FM-W mode with a shift of 12000. Of course this sounds like crap out of the PC speakers. Not only does KG-Tone provide CTCSS/DCS info it also makes any analog audio sound pretty darned good. Of course the digital audio is being processed separately via DSD.

The NetSDR I have has their downconverter in it, which basically makes it usable up to almost 2 GHz. There is a modification that I need to make to separate the antenna connections as specs fall off after 500 MHz otherwise. It's just a matter of adding a hole for an SMA connector, a short cable, and moving a resistor on the downconverter board from one place to another.

I guess in the end, there is nothing wrong with AOR making a radio like the AR-DV1. For some folks, they may find it useful, although at $1200, I don't know how many. It is not just about price. It's that you can obviously do so much more.

Oh there's nothing wrong with it at all. My favorite part about it is that it proves it CAN be done. Now the "right" company should get involved and get it done. That "right" company COULD even be AOR...it just seems that may be so far away that now is not the right time to commit $1200 to this particular device. Not in my case anyway.

As to point 3 above ; could you not run dsd plus
thru the the back of the aor dv1.
Add the dongle and you have the same results.

I absolutely could do that, without a doubt. But...I already could do that long before I got my hands on this radio. Not to mention, I can do it with a $10 dongle as the signal source. If the DV1 could do it by itself, we wouldn't be having this conversation!

A final question , when radio decodes a digital
Signal does it display what it is ?
DRM ,Dstar ect.

Now that they have auto mode working it will display the received type of digital signal. DMR=DMR, P25=P25 and for some reason NXDN=D-CR. I did not have any DSTAR to sample. But the auto mode is only for digital signals, if you encounter an analog signal while in auto mode, it sounds atrocious. Each mode can also be accessed manually.

I'm glad to have the opportunity to do these tests, and very thankful to Jeff for allowing me to do so with his demo model. I just can't see it becoming a member of my radio room permanently without that "whizz-bang" feature we all would like to see.