The end of scanner development and mfg.

[buddrousa]

So are the Russians that hacked the FBI radios.
So are the Canadians that hacked the Video Cipher 1 and 2 on Sat TV.
Just Saying.

 

[jonwienke]

Monitoring encryption isn't really governed by political laws, it's governed by mathematical laws that are far harder to break. Ignoring political laws is easy. Ignoring laws of math and physics (like gravity) is impossible.

 

[jonwienke]

So are the Russians that hacked the FBI radios.
So are the Canadians that hacked the Video Cipher 1 and 2 on Sat TV.
Just Saying.

That's a key management (aka user) or a system design error. You're exploiting human errors, not violating mathematical laws.

 

[frazpo]

That's ridiculous.


You think that AES is some sort of licensed algorithm? You're just making up nonsense.


More willful ignorance on your part.


Au contraire. We would all love to hear your method for sidestepping AES256. Don't be so shy.

Some of you guys are quite the BS artists.

On queue. I think people were just theorizing and just speaking off the cuff about their thoughts. Do we really have to make everything a "I know it , you dont, your an idiot" thread. This isn't Twitter. It's kind of nice hearing others ideas, theories, etc. No matter the technical accuracy or conspiracy.

 

[jonwienke]

Unfounded and inaccurate speculation rarely contributes anything useful to a conversation, except perhaps a bit of comedy. But if you're trying to have a serious discussion, it's generally a waste of time, bits, and oxygen for everyone involved.

 

[werinshades]

So if I'm reading all the responses correctly, the encryption laws have no meaning, and the only reason why we'll never see a scanner capable of monitoring this technology is because it would take too much ingenuity for Uniden to figure out?

 

[frazpo]

Unfounded and inaccurate speculation rarely contributes anything useful to a conversation, except perhaps a bit of comedy. But if you're trying to have a serious discussion, it's generally a waste of time, bits, and oxygen for everyone involved.

Semi serious, Jon. No need to analyze the nature and content of an internet forum to me. I realize where we are at and how the conversation can evolve into meaningless nonsense at times. But is there really a need for someone to identify the elephant in the room with some know it all #%@? Theres always "that guy" lol. Anyway I digress. Welcome back btw.

 

[Firekite]

As I understand it, a licensed algorithm that cannot be compromised.

Those are not words that make sense in that order.

So are the Russians that hacked the FBI radios.
So are the Canadians that hacked the Video Cipher 1 and 2 on Sat TV.
Just Saying.

They did not crack a stream of incoming encrypted data in real-time.

“Just Saying.”

I think people were just theorizing and just speaking off the cuff about their thoughts.

“Theorizing” is the nicest way I’ve ever seen someone say “make up BS about stuff stuff they don’t understand.”

the only reason why we'll never see a scanner capable of monitoring this technology is because it would take too much ingenuity for Uniden to figure out?

No.

 

[frazpo]

“Theorizing” is the nicest way I’ve ever seen someone say “make up BS about stuff stuff they don’t understand.”

Ha. Well good point. That definitely does happen.

 

[trentbob]

I don’t think y’all understand what encryption is. It has nothing to do with radio, inherently. Laws regarding cracking encryption, if they exist, are irrelevant. Scanner manufacturers won’t be able to “keep up with” encrypted channels, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with any pointless laws.

Encryption is not a new digital mode or some sort of new way of making more efficient use of a narrow set of frequencies. Encryption means leveraging cryptographic techniques and technologies to rearrange digital data into otherwise meaningless gibberish to the extent that you can’t easily put that data back again into its original form without possession of the correct decryption key. It’s vey math and computer science intensive, but essentially people come up with ciphers and algorithms to allow a computing system (including your phone, or a digital radio, etc) to rapidly encrypt and decrypt data without too much difficulty if they have the keys while ensuring that no one can come with a way to shortcut their way to a solution. Barring someone finding such a shortcut, cracking encryption requires a massive amount of computing power and time. If someone encrypts a file, and they hand you that file to try to crack, with enough time and computing power you may be able to do it, but it would take a lot of both.

The point is, encryption is not “the next phase” of radio. It is not something for scanner manufacturers (or SDR dongles and computer software) to “handle” or “catch up with.” Any current or future laws against listening to encrypted traffic are pointless and irrelevant to the conversation; they have nothing to do with why encryption is a problem for monitoring radio traffic, even for people who have no concern for laws. Encryption means no monitoring—not because you're disallowed or because scanner manufacturers haven’t caught up with it, but because you cannot. By definition, it’s not possible.

That's ridiculous.


You think that AES is some sort of licensed algorithm? You're just making up nonsense.


More willful ignorance on your part.


Au contraire. We would all love to hear your method for sidestepping AES256. Don't be so shy.

Some of you guys are quite the BS artists.

I'm not sure if it's necessary to keep reminding some of us what encryption is, I assure you, I for one... Know what encryption is.

Don't underestimate some of the experience that people have here as you lecture them on rudimentary basics. It makes you look bad.

I can also assure you I'm no BS artist although I do see an awful lot of BS being flung around here. I understand that this is different than all of the other obstacles like trunking and digital modes.

Once again, Ad nauseam, we are not going to have scanners that can receive encryption and if we could they couldn't sell them anyway.

When I said that people will find a way around it but I wasn't going to discuss it because it is illegal I will give you at least a hint of what I was talking about. I usually don't talk with people who insult me but... what's going to happen will be those with the proper resources will have private and I emphasize the word private ways of sharing it with others on the internet. I'm not going to go into details but you figure it out.

As I was saying to JD this was a pleasant conversation last night talking about nostalgia and all of the ways that good research and development kept the scanner companies alive as the changes came. When I started I used a slide rule dial tunable monitor and Crystal controlled scanners. When good research and development produced programmable scanners that was an amazing development. Have a nice Sunday everybody... Bob.

 

[MTS2000des]

Consumer scanner radios have to be marketable. With little of commercial interest, the manufacturers are not going to keep putting money into rolling out new hardware and software with a dwindling worldwide user base. In the EU and UK, scanning has been pretty much limited since the deployment of TETRA (and soon LTE/5G) for public service communication. Not only end to end "E", but a network topology that, even if one could monitor, the nature of a cellular network makes consistent reception of desired talk groups or users near impossible unless one has an authorized, provisioned subscriber unit.

The progression of technology marches on at a faster pace than we've seen in 40-50 years. We cannot compare the progression of conventional to trunking, from analog to digital, etc- because in comparison to the explosion of cellular telephony going from a toy to a necessity of life, one would be foolish to think this too, isn't going to impact large scale LMR. The ripple effect is that scanners today are designed primarily to receive LMR of whatever flavor. While some doubt that LTE/5G/CBRS/piconets will ever replace "big daddy" LMR, we also would never have thought in 2004 that people would be toting smartphones that dwarf desktop PCs for raw computing power, and those devices would make obsolete in months things we used for decades: cassette recorders, VCRs, CD/DVD players, video cameras, still cameras, clock radios- think of all of the electronics you no longer buy because your phone does it all- and better. Coupled with wireless networks giving better data speeds than possible just a few years ago.

Scannists must adapt and prepare for the day when you'll have to technically proficient with SDRs and software, but true radio hobbyists will always endure. No, the sky isn't falling- but you will continue to see less and less development of consumer scanning radios. Pro stuff like Icom wideband receivers and AOR will stick around with higher priced hardware for commercial/government, but the commercial (consumer) electronics niche market of scanning radios reached it's zenith and it's just the way technology goes.

Can you buy a quality cassette deck (current production)? Nope. Even though hipsters of today have an analog fetish and new recordings are being released on cassette. There isn't enough money to make quality, high performance hardware like a Nakamichi Dragon or Yamaha K-1000 in 2019 even though it could be done for less. Not enough people are going to give up iTunes and Google Play for nostalgia. I see the same for consumer scanners.

 

[K7MFC]

Can you buy a quality cassette deck (current production)? Nope.

Not sure what cassette players have to do with the discussion, but you can definitely find decent cassette players still in production.

 

[KE0GXN]

@frazpo You got good one going here so far. But unfortunately the grandstanding has started to seep in, as I expected it eventually would around here. Oh, well..I'll continue to lurk for as long as it lasts. There has been some interesting thoughts and opinions shared.

On a side note, @K7MFC , I'll will catch you someday!

 

[frazpo]

@frazpo You got good one going here so far. But unfortunately the grandstanding has started to seep in, as I expected it eventually would around here. Oh, well..I'll continue to lurk for as long as it lasts. There has been some interesting thoughts and opinions shared.

On a side note, @K7MFC , I'll will catch you someday!

That always seems to happen but some have tact and some just can't help to have it all figured out. Ha. It has been a good discussion. I hope it continues, bloviating or not.

 

[12dbsinad]

Not sure what cassette players have to do with the discussion, but you can definitely find decent cassette players still in production.

Yep. I think he also fails to understand that analog audio recording/production is making a comeback. I personally know people who are getting back into it because "digital" does not always mean better. Anyway off my soap box and back to topic.

Scanners where able to evolve over the years and adapt to new technology because there was really no road block. The big E was a minor problem in the day. It was expensive and came with all kinds of negatives like reduced range and not so great audio quality. Today it's a mouse click. A very detrimental mouse click.

 

[Bob1955]

So are the Russians that hacked the FBI radios.
So are the Canadians that hacked the Video Cipher 1 and 2 on Sat TV.
Just Saying.

It will NEVER be the end of scanner development. Such DRAMA!

 

[mitbr]

I have been listening to the scanner hobby since 1974 and have seen many changes. I think Uniden will continue to make scanners as long as they are profitable to make. When they are no longer profitable it stops.
Many times in my listening to this hobby over the years people have said it is going to die because of newer technology. I believe encryption is the one thing we have little or no control over that will see the hobbies demise.
The only control we have to slow this demise is to stop publicly broadcasting their comms over the net.Enjoy the hobby while we can and hopefully it will be around for many years to come!!
Tim

 

[tumegpc]

You can continue to empty a box of tissues or man up and get out of your comfort zone by picking up something like a Icom R30. A wideband receiver that offers a real working app, Bluetooth, dual record, dual receive, dual bandcope, P25, and a bunch of other digital modes already included. The R30 comes with a desktop charger and the option to use AA batteries.

I'm not saying to replace your existing scanner, just add the R30 to your shack. Icom will be around a lot longer than Whistler or Uniden.

 

[MTS2000des]

Yep. I think he also fails to understand that analog audio recording/production is making a comeback. I personally know people who are getting back into it because "digital" does not always mean better. Anyway off my soap box and back to topic.

Uh, it's called an analogy. You obviously missed the point, no one is making high end, quality cassette equipment. That era has passed. Not some low end junk like the Pyle (or PiLE of dung). Let me know when Nakamichi, Tandberg, or Pioneer starts putting out a new 3-head with direct drive, Dolby S and a built-in DAC. Not gonna happen. Dolby no longer licenses their noise reduction circuitry to IC manufacturers, that is how dead cassettes (HIGH QUALITY) are.

Scanners will suffer a similar fate, we've already seen this with Whistler pulling the plug on their new from the ground-up product. Sure, cheap low end stuff will be here, but the days of high end, innovative, top gear for CONSUMERS are approaching the end. It is what it is.

 

[12dbsinad]

Uh, it's called an analogy. You obviously missed the point, no one is making high end, quality cassette equipment. That era has passed. Not some low end junk like the Pyle (or PiLE of dung). Let me know when Nakamichi, Tandberg, or Pioneer starts putting out a new 3-head with direct drive, Dolby S and a built-in DAC. Not gonna happen. Dolby no longer licenses their noise reduction circuitry to IC manufacturers, that is how dead cassettes (HIGH QUALITY) are.

Never said all these companies will start producing equipment. I said the interest is growing. When the interest grows, so doesn't profit. There MAY be some company out there that will see this. Note I said MAY. Nobody knows, but at this point if you look around, you'll see more analog work than you did 8-10 years ago. Most of that is with legacy equipment at this point. Your cassette player and scanner analogy really isn't the same deal, I'll explain in my next quote.

Scanners will suffer a similar fate, we've already seen this with Whistler pulling the plug on their new from the ground-up product. Sure, cheap low end stuff will be here, but the days of high end, innovative, top gear for CONSUMERS are approaching the end. It is what it is.

Scanner production will cease because of measures taken to try to make the airwaves non scanable. Today that is mostly E, which if it could be decoded I'd be illegal anyway. It probably won't be because of lack of interest either. That lack of interest on a cassette player that you mention CAN come back, regardless of technology. Or, maybe it won't. It already has to some extent. That's the difference.

To give an example, I own a International Harvester Scout. For years, body parts and reproduction parts were non-existent. Until enough interest came about that a company bought the old International tooling and started making body panels and parts. Sure, it's really expensive. But it's available, and they continue to grow. Now, if for some reason these vehicles could no longer be driven legally, or fuel made illegal, or something else to make them non-usable they would be paper weights and worth nothing but scrap steel. No one would want to restore them, maintain them and the interest for a company to start reproducing parts wouldn't be there by increased interest on a 50 year old SUV. They would just go away. That's what will happen to scanners.