The Official Thread: Live audio feeds, scanners, and... wait for it.. ENCRYPTION!

TangoFox

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Delays arn't all that good, either.

If I hear a fire call nearby of a crash. I may be the first one there, I can render first aid before fire may get on scene.

If I hear a police call, I can observe someone leaving the area - and could call the Police and tell them what I saw.

The caution is with morons who try to "be the police" and hear a call come out and try to go stop the shoplifter.

I've always seen more positives than negatives regarding live broadcasts.
 

tampabaynews

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Delays arn't all that good, either.

If I hear a fire call nearby of a crash. I may be the first one there, I can render first aid before fire may get on scene.

If I hear a police call, I can observe someone leaving the area - and could call the Police and tell them what I saw.

The caution is with morons who try to "be the police" and hear a call come out and try to go stop the shoplifter.

I've always seen more positives than negatives regarding live broadcasts.

Better delayed than non-existent because of encryption. = The whole point of this thread.
 

Mars_P25

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Learn the facts before you post information that is irrelevant to this topic...

I'm streaming and have streamed HAM BANDS..... I'm not endangering our public service agencies on any way by streaming Joe Blow talking on a repeater about how his day went.
If it's that boring, why even bother wasting the resources to stream it?

My ham repeaters are encrypted with AES-256. It keeps unauthorized streaming at bay.
 

Mars_P25

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Delays arn't all that good, either.

If I hear a fire call nearby of a crash. I may be the first one there, I can render first aid before fire may get on scene.
If you're affiliated with the local emergency services (i.e. licensed), then you will be issued your own radio/pager and dispatched. If you have no EMS license, or are not officially dispatched to a scene, please do not "respond" as you'll likely get in the way or put yourself at risk of harm.

Scene safety is the first thing on the minds' of public safety personnel whom are responding. You may not know of all the particulars by listening to the scanner. Do not get involved as a civilian unless you stumble upon someone require immediate aid and emergency services are already on the way. If you want to "respond" to help people out, then please, by all means, consider getting involved in the education and licensing process. You'll be able to legitimately help and you'll have the proper resources, laws and training to back you up.
 

chaycock

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If it's that boring, why even bother wasting the resources to stream it?

My ham repeaters are encrypted with AES-256. It keeps unauthorized streaming at bay.

If this is really true, then you or whoever is running the repeaters is breaking the law (FCC Part 97). Also, anyone that uses the repeater with encryption enabled is also breaking the law and could be subject to having their ham license revoked by the FCC. I don't really see how they would be encrypted since no ham gear is made that supports encryption unless you are using re-purposed commercial gear.
 

kayn1n32008

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If this is really true, then you or whoever is running the repeaters is breaking the law (FCC Part 97).
where Mars_P25 lives the FCC has no jurisdiction.

Also, anyone that uses the repeater with encryption enabled is also breaking the law and could be subject to having their ham license revoked by the FCC.

See above

I don't really see how they would be encrypted since no ham gear is made that supports encryption unless you are using re-purposed commercial gear.


Lots of folks prefer commercial radios over hammy junk/toys. Build quality is FAR superior. Myself and a friend of mine have been playing with NXDN on VHF ham band. We both use NX-700 radios for both Ham and LMR.

I still own and use a IC-92ad, but only because it is dual band and easy to program when out of town.
 
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Mars_P25

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If this is really true, then you or whoever is running the repeaters is breaking the law (FCC Part 97). Also, anyone that uses the repeater with encryption enabled is also breaking the law and could be subject to having their ham license revoked by the FCC. I don't really see how they would be encrypted since no ham gear is made that supports encryption unless you are using re-purposed commercial gear.
Please don't assume every member of RR lives in the USA.

Where I live, it's perfectly legal. The pertinent regulation states one "cannot use a secret code or cipher". The key is not a secret if it's shared with others, including our government agency, who wish to participate or monitor. And the key is only disclosed to those whom have compatible gear, not scanner whackers. And why do we need encryption? Just to piss scannerheads and hams off, to be honest.

I don't use ham-branded radios. It's all garbage, except for some of the mid/high-tier HF stuff made by the big 3 vendors. VHF/UHF ham radios are terrible. Before you or anyone else kneejerks and says "YOU ARE WRONG", please try using/comparing commercial gear, first. Ham-branded gear is cheap for a reason.
 

SCPD

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If you're affiliated with the local emergency services (i.e. licensed), then you will be issued your own radio/pager and dispatched. If you have no EMS license, or are not officially dispatched to a scene, please do not "respond" as you'll likely get in the way or put yourself at risk of harm.

Scene safety is the first thing on the minds' of public safety personnel whom are responding. You may not know of all the particulars by listening to the scanner. Do not get involved as a civilian unless you stumble upon someone require immediate aid and emergency services are already on the way. If you want to "respond" to help people out, then please, by all means, consider getting involved in the education and licensing process. You'll be able to legitimately help and you'll have the proper resources, laws and training to back you up.

Now, wait a minute, Mars. You don't know who this guy is.
 

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chaycock

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Please don't assume every member of RR lives in the USA.

Where I live, it's perfectly legal. The pertinent regulation states one "cannot use a secret code or cipher". The key is not a secret if it's shared with others, including our government agency, who wish to participate or monitor. And the key is only disclosed to those whom have compatible gear, not scanner whackers. And why do we need encryption? Just to piss scannerheads and hams off, to be honest.

I don't use ham-branded radios. It's all garbage, except for some of the mid/high-tier HF stuff made by the big 3 vendors. VHF/UHF ham radios are terrible. Before you or anyone else kneejerks and says "YOU ARE WRONG", please try using/comparing commercial gear, first. Ham-branded gear is cheap for a reason.

Point taken, I made an assumption about where you live. So obviously, what I said pertains only to hams that live in the US.
 

MTS2000des

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Point taken, I made an assumption about where you live. So obviously, what I said pertains only to hams that live in the US.

Nothing in part 97 specifically bans encryption. 97.113 merely states one cannot obscure the meaning of a transmission. It all comes down to INTENT. If a licensee can articulate the need for encryption and that it's utilization is to ensure full compliance with control operator sections of part 97, and not to actually obscure the meaning of the licensees' transmissions, I'd wager it would pass.

A DMR network for example, pretty much requires one utilize encryption and RAS to be fully compliant with other sections of part 97, to prevent unauthorized use and maintain control of the network.

If one encrypts to maintain a network free of lids, CCR kerchunking turds, and they don't intend to obscure the meaning of their traffic, they are not in violation of 97.113. But one would have to try, I am sure some crybaby whiner ham would make a Federal case and whine because they got banned from a private system running RAS and encryption.

It sure would end the unauthorized streaming as it does so well in the public safety world! AES-256 for all!
 

exkalibur

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Put up a feed with an implemented delay on your end - I triple dog dare you.


For what its worth, there's absolutely zero way to know this is happening, unless there is another stream that has duplicate coverage. Or, if someone else provides evidence of the delay.
 

com501

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Isn't there another TOS that says exact duplicate streams are not allowed, so wouldn't it be very hard to prove? I seem to recall that, although I haven't read the streaming rules in a few years, it seemed a pointless exercise to put up a stream in the first place.
 

tampabaynews

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For what its worth, there's absolutely zero way to know this is happening, unless there is another stream that has duplicate coverage. Or, if someone else provides evidence of the delay.
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Or if the agency being streamed says the time after transmissions.
 

ProducerGuy

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I'm not against encryption, but I do feel like it is being used to hide from the very public being served, as if everyone is presumably a "bad guy" running from the law. Sensitive talkgroups should be encrypted, if only for the duration of the traffic being passed. Let everything else be in the clear.

I really appreciate being able to listen to my local jurisdiction, in case there's a call to my elderly father's house, or any other family for that matter.

Encryption only obscures the audio, it doesn't always keep the teenage kidwith too much time on his hands from trying to put a hacked radio on a system. Subscriber authentication can handle that. So to be so het-up to encrypt Peter The Meter Reader, or the dog catcher, smacks of a more insidious agenda.

I didn't forget about certain incidents in the Atlanta area involving people putting unauthorized radios on certain systems. But those are the exception, not the rule. Had they simply enjoyed a scanner, they might have stayed out of trouble.

A local detective told me they don't say anything over the radio that they care if it's overheard or not. He added that they "59" to discuss something sensitive. So there's more to this whole thing.

I see the encryption craze as one more piece of the puzzle in the move towards Fascism in our country. We're supposed to be a free country, let's be about it, not just talk about it.
 
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MTS2000des

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I'm not against encryption, but I do feel like it is being used to hide from the very public being served, as if everyone is presumably a "bad guy" running from the law.

So how does one determine who out of those in scanner/streaming land is a "bad guy" and who is just "scanner guy"? Answer: one cannot. The only way to protect users on a system is encryption. The same reason you encrypt your Wi-Fi connection. You'd have no problem with allowing your family to use your network, but you certainly don't want the kinko the kid loving clown nearby to surf for his kiddie-porn on your connection, so you encrypt to protect.

Sensitive talkgroups should be encrypted, if only for the duration of the traffic being passed. Let everything else be in the clear.

How do you propose to do this? So you're telling me that operations folks have to add more work to enable/disable encryption during/after incidents? Been a while since you stepped foot into a 911 center I see.

It's difficult enough getting users to change talkgroups for a planned system upgrade. Adding more workload to already taxed dispatchers just so it makes it easier for someone to tune it with a scanner or for streamers to blabber what they hear on anti-social media somehow doesn't make sense to me.

But what do I know. According to the so-called industry expert here, all I do is "drop templates into radios all day"...

I really appreciate being able to listen to my local jurisdiction, in case there's a call to my elderly father's house, or any other family for that matter.

I get that, but wouldn't you not rather your local jurisdiction notify you on your cellphone that they are rolling to your folks' place? I mean it would be much more relevant and less intrusive to get alerted this way. And at least if your local jurisdiction was encrypted, you wouldn't have to worry about some busy body blabbing that your pops got drunk and fell down the stairs LOL.

Encryption only obscures the audio, it doesn't always keep the teenage kidwith too much time on his hands from trying to put a hacked radio on a system. Subscriber authentication can handle that.

Yup, you're correct. The morons can still clone an active ID and affiliate on the system. But they will also stick out like a sore thumb to guys like me who, ya know, only "drop templates into radios all day" at the local county/city radio shop...and they still won't be able to hear any traffic, which is what the whacktards want: to walk around with a po-po radio with PD traffic blaring out of their eBay parts built APX. Gives them a rise in their Levis.

I didn't forget about certain incidents in the Atlanta area involving people putting unauthorized radios on certain systems. But those are the exception, not the rule. Had they simply enjoyed a scanner, they might have stayed out of trouble.

Happens and is happening much more than you may think. But you are right, had they not actually accessed a government communications system without authorization and acted like a jackass, they'd wouldn't be in the dire straits they are. But they also pointed out a weakness in a system, one that will soon be corrected. That's life.

I see the encryption craze as one more piece of the puzzle in the move towards Fascism in our country. We're supposed to be a free country, let's be about it, not just talk about it.

That's a great tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but baseless and without fact. Cite a specific example where encrypted government radios system were used to facilitate the commission of a crime by those authorized users. Waiting...
 

Citywide173

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How do you propose to do this? So you're telling me that operations folks have to add more work to enable/disable encryption during/after incidents? Been a while since you stepped foot into a 911 center I see.

It's difficult enough getting users to change talkgroups for a planned system upgrade. Adding more workload to already taxed dispatchers just so it makes it easier for someone to tune it with a scanner or for streamers to blabber what they hear on anti-social media somehow doesn't make sense to me.

Not everyone is on a trunked system. If encryption is needed, many places just ask the dispatcher "can you go to channel x?" where that channel has full time encryption. With the current dispatch equipment, that usually entails clicking on a different icon, or at most, clicking on a tab, then clicking on the icon. In the past, I've had to press the transmit button on a different part of the console (six to eighteen inches away from the main tx button-Oh, the horror!). I know it's extra work, but if you got into public safety to be lazy, perhaps dispatch isn't where you should be.

I get that, but wouldn't you not rather your local jurisdiction notify you on your cellphone that they are rolling to your folks' place? I mean it would be much more relevant and less intrusive to get alerted this way. And at least if your local jurisdiction was encrypted, you wouldn't have to worry about some busy body blabbing that your pops got drunk and fell down the stairs LOL.

I have to admit that I found this quite amusing. Although I'm no longer up there, my dispatch center handled 122,000+ incidents last year (which means the calltakers process significantly more based on how incidents get reported.) They are staffed with 4 9-1-1 operators from 6AM-2AM and 3 9-1-1 operators from 2AM-6AM (this is in addition to the Citywide Dispatcher, C-MED operator and supervisor.) Contractual breaks usually reduce that number by 1 at any given point in the shift other than the first or last hour. There is no room for them to make notifications of this type, and no automatic system exists in Boston.

Of course, I'm dismissed by the local authority here as well.......
 

MTS2000des

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Not everyone is on a trunked system. If encryption is needed, many places just ask the dispatcher "can you go to channel x?" where that channel has full time encryption. With the current dispatch equipment, that usually entails clicking on a different icon, or at most, clicking on a tab, then clicking on the icon. In the past, I've had to press the transmit button on a different part of the console (six to eighteen inches away from the main tx button-Oh, the horror!). I know it's extra work, but if you got into public safety to be lazy, perhaps dispatch isn't where you should be.

Has nothing to do with laziness. Has everything to do with purpose. Why should any agency have to unsecure their network(s) just so non-public safety can listen in real time on a scanner? Asinine logic.

Sure, to turn encryption on and off on an MCC7500, if setup in PM, one just clicks the padlock (unless strapped), but why should a dispatcher have to bother turning it on and off just so you can listen on your scanner? I really think there are better things they need to spend their time on. But what do I know.

I have to admit that I found this quite amusing. Although I'm no longer up there, my dispatch center handled 122,000+ incidents last year (which means the calltakers process significantly more based on how incidents get reported.)

Where I work we handle an average of over 800,000 calls a year. Yet despite low staffing levels at times, programs like CodeRed Alert have been highly successful.

So have other departments in the area who have VERY active presence on social media and it is written into their protocol that comm supervisors at the direction of an agency personnel put out lookouts, traffic incidents, fires, missing children, etc on their official Facebook and Twitter feeds, as well as third party services like Nixle.

Agencies should be more pro-active in using these tools to keep the public informed. Yes, it takes more work, but it would be much more effective than disabling encryption during incidents just so scanner/streamer land can tune in.
 

tampabaynews

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Agencies should be more pro-active in using these tools to keep the public informed. .

Sounds like a "perfect world" plan. But just because the agencies in your area are very active on social media doesn't mean it's like that everywhere else. There isn't any requirement for agencies to post to social media at all and some just won't... unless it's a positive PR story.
 

krokus

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That's a great tin foil hat conspiracy theory, but baseless and without fact. Cite a specific example where encrypted government radios system were used to facilitate the commission of a crime by those authorized users. Waiting...

You know that would be difficult, if not impossible, to prove. The low frequency of "bad apples", coupled them being encrypted, then being found despite the encryption, would have astronomical odds.

That is not mutually exclusive of the public having "reasonable access" to the audio traffic on the system.

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