Thinking about getting an XTS...Anyone have one on here?

[ROOFLIFECO]

Hello everybody! I am interested in getting a new radio or two here in the near future, and one of the ones I am looking at is an XTS, any model. I am interested in the VHF and 800 MHz. I was wondering if any of the fellow Colorado people on this board have one and could tell me a little about them, such as how you like the radio, and what you don't like about it. Any opinions would be great!

 

[mlevin]

What do you need it for? If not for official purposes I wouldn't reccomend getting one.

 

[scanlist]

VHF I can see for legit use if this guy is a licensed amatuer radio operator. Unless he's thinking about Wyoming's P25 VHF network.

800 MHz no way. CCNC would over the air nuke his radio into an overpriced paperweight so fast we would see it as a "tech special" on ebay.

I know of legitimate media requests through the CCNC that were flat ass denied. I seriously doubt they would grant legitimate access to an over zealous scanner freak.

This type of recklessness is gonna kill the hobby for the rest of us. :evil:

Phil.

 

[mmartinfan]

Nothing like spending 800+ bucks on a paper weight. :roll: :roll:

 

[Colin9690]

I wouldn't get one either because of the radios advanced security features. Basically, if you actually find someone that will be willing to program it for you, the dispatcher of the programmed system will just zap your radio useless. They do that because you radio shows up as an UNAUTHORIZED USER. Also, it's an FCC violation if you are not a member of the system.

 

[k0pwo]

The XTS radios can be modified to not affiliate and not transmit. They can be used as a scanner, however, they are extremly limited as a scanner since you will only be able to scan 16 talkgroups and no more.

And to those of you on here that only think the worst of someone wanting to use commerical quality radios as a receiver I say this in the defense of those of us that do use Ma'com and Moto radios in our daily monitoring.

People that have commercial quality radios and that use them as a receiver only and that use them responsibly, whether they are ma-com or moto rigs, are of no more threat to the hobby then any other scanner hobbiest. Go to LA or Chiciago someday and attend a CARMA or LA monitoring clubs meeting. You will not see any scanners at all. They all monitor with commercial quality radios becasue they work much much much better than any scanner made to date. Especially when it comes to trunking systems.

Colorado is actually way behind some areas (though they are also way ahead of some other areas of the country) in the radio monitoring hobby area as well as in the amateur radio arens. Way behind!

I just thought I would express my views since everytime someone comes on this forum or the other colorado scanning forum/email reflectors and asks about using commercial raidos they get the same rath over and over again...

Regards,

Dave

 

[Scan-Denver]

The XTS radios can be modified to not affiliate and not transmit. They can be used as a scanner, however, they are extremly limited as a scanner since you will only be able to scan 16 talkgroups and no more.

And to those of you on here that only think the worst of someone wanting to use commerical quality radios as a receiver I say this in the defense of those of us that do use Ma'com and Moto radios in our daily monitoring.

People that have commercial quality radios and that use them as a receiver only and that use them responsibly, whether they are ma-com or moto rigs, are of no more threat to the hobby then any other scanner hobbiest. Go to LA or Chiciago someday and attend a CARMA or LA monitoring clubs meeting. You will not see any scanners at all. They all monitor with commercial quality radios becasue they work much much much better than any scanner made to date. Especially when it comes to trunking systems.

Colorado is actually way behind some areas (though they are also way ahead of some other areas of the country) in the radio monitoring hobby area as well as in the amateur radio arens. Way behind!

I just thought I would express my views since everytime someone comes on this forum or the other colorado scanning forum/email reflectors and asks about using commercial raidos they get the same rath over and over again...

Regards,

Dave

I have to side with Dave on this one ! I have a GE PCS radio that was programmed by the Denver Police Department (for a fee of course) to Scan only (no transmit) capability whatsoever and it is still working today. Had it programmed almost 10 years ago ! Notice I said it was legitimately programmed by the Denver Police Department and not someone else - although I do have another PCS that was programmed by someone else and have not had any problems with it either !

 

[INDY72]

And they get told this for good reason-

Unless your authorized for a radio on a TRS, you are illegally using said system even if your just listening.... Look it up.

If perchance your radio should recieve a query from the System.. and iether fails to properly ID, or ID's and is not on the list as a properly athorized unit.. it will be given a KILL command and be put to sleep. The only way to "Wake it back up" is for an authorized Motorola Shop to do it. You can claim all the "its better than a scanner" stuff you want. If your NOT athorized to be on siad systems, your illegally accessing it. PERIOD.

Go ahead don't take our word for it... let the system operators find out... And make sure you have lots of money to pay for the fines and or lawyers to try to stay out of jail.

Now as for the quality of the XTS's.. I love them... I own an XTS3000 R Model III. Its set for 800 and has the ASTRO enabled. As I no longer need an 800 capable radio, its about to get traded for an VHF version to a friend that needs the 800 one. And it will be fully functional because I have authorization to use radios on the systems that it will be programmed for. If your just wanting to monitor an TRS.. get a scanner.. its cheaper, and is safer. If your going to think about using say an XTS5000 for a ASTRO-25 system to just listen.. your out of luck. ASTRO-25 systems will NOT let you just monitor.. all radios auto affiliate to siad systems... There is no NO affiliate programming....

 

[Scan-Denver]

Ha - that's funny ! They can't come after me for anything if it was the agency itself who programmed it for me and charged me to do it.

Oh well, everyone has their own opinions and like backsides, they all stink ! :lol:

 

[k0pwo]

P25 radios can be made to not affiliate. True its not thru software like the type II moto systems but they can be made to not affiliate and they will scan the control channel and will receive the talkgroups that are listed in the scanlist. They will do it. Thought they will not do it very effectively.

As for a radio that is programmed to monitor only and not affiliate to the system. The system operator like you say cannot query the radio and deactivate the radio. The system controller can not access a radio that has never logged onto the system because the system controller and the system operator has no idea the radio even exist. I fully understand how the over the air deactiviation works when a radio logs on the system without authorization. However a receive only radio cannot be deactivated.

As for listening to a system that you are not authorized to use. Well scanners have been accessing systems for decades that they are not authorized to use. True provoice radios are not open standard, however, the radios are freely sold as is the software etc.... yes I know this doesn't make it legal etc.. However, the transmission is freely being transmitted and is open to reception. Sure I don't know how this will hold up legally in court anymore. system operators have much more important issues to persue than a couple of hobbiest listening to their system. Besides, what should they have to hide.

Remember, P25 standards were not designed to lock out the public from communications. They were never designed for that. The reason the FCC and APCO devised the standards is due to the FCC looking into the future and seeing that the available spectrum was running thin and ordered that all radio communications would have to become narrower in spectrum space. The only way to accomplish this is thru digital techniques, Thus digital communicaions were born. Encryption is the appropriiate way of protecting vital communications and should be used by all depts that feel that their sensitive communications need to be protected. But for a fire dept and daily pd communications, there is nothing that needs to be hid from the public.

I am sure this will start a fire between a few others on here... But that truely is not my intent, I am just once again voicing my opinions.

Dave

 

[ROOFLIFECO]

As for my opinion, I agree completely with both Scan-Denver and k0pwo, since they both put it so well. I personally hate scanners. I have an M-PA that I have programmed to nearly every EDACS system in Colorado. It is not programmed to transmit at all and is not violating any laws or anything. I also agree that it is a matter of preference. Another thing I find much better about owning a commercial radio, is that the options and accessories available for it not only make it more "accessable" than a scanner, but also more durable. One reason I close to go with the GE M-PA to monitor with instead of another radio and/or scanner is because you can "beat them up" they are so tough. I have has my same M-PA for almost 2 years now and have never had a problem with it. Once again, I like them because they are also very easy to recharge, and the battery life is amazing. I have has the short battery that is on mine right now since I have owned the radio, and to this day, it still holds nearly an all day charge. Scanner.....Probably not. k0pwo and Scan-Denver, both please email me ROOFLIFECO@aol.com Thanks all

 

[SCPD]

If I were a sys. admin. I would not be worried about a few people with real radios that know what they're doing and know how to make their radios never TX. What would worry me is the people that don't know what they're doing, and there are plenty of them.

Everyone remembers the retard, moron, idiot teenager that was purposely TXing on Denver's system. While this kind of stupidity is very rare and was rare even in the conventional days where it was (is) very easy to do, what would concern me on a trunking system is the people that just don't know what they're doing. The wanna be radio techs.

I personally think the best approach to dealing with people that TX (on purpose or inadvertently) is to DF their signal and throw the book at them. If you make it public and get the word out, which most agencies seem to do when they have a problem, it works as a deterrent for other idiots.

But, the manufacturers are starting to take the approach of making sure no one who is unauthorized can even listen because of a few bad apples. They are offering things like ESK and agencies can use it if they want to and can lock everyone out because of the few bad apples.

That's why I don't think it's too wise to talk about using your real radio on systems in a public forum like this. Guess what, sys. admins. can read and use the web too. If you're doing it and you know what you're doing, fine, but it might be smart to keep it to yourself. I suspect this is what Phil was thinking when he wrote what he did.

Tim

 

[Steve2003]

I know you can prevent an xts3000 from transmitting on a talkgroup, but I thought you could not prevent it from affiliating with the system. Even if you could prevent it from affiliating, wouldn't you need a system key to program into the radio to get it to scan on the system?

 

[INDY72]

On an regular ASTRO system you can set up the HT's to not affiliate, and not TX... On a ASTRO-25 system I am sorry but to even monitor the radios must affiliate with the system. This has been discused time and again. If you have athorization to use a radio on a system then your fine and dandy as this has NEVER been debated.. But to use an unathorized radio to monitor the system is illegal. Scanners are not using a system, they only monitor it, and have NO access to the security, or safety, or advanced features, or any other true access.

I am not against you using anything you want if your athorized to monitor, or use the system. But if you are illegally accessing the system vias an unathorized radio no matter if its Motorola, E.F.J. or M/A-Com.... then thats another issue altogether....

And I don't know of any agency that will just give anyone access to thier full system on an EDACS Provoice system. Sure they might hook you up for Press Purposes with a radio with *SOME* TG's you can hear.. but I do not think youll be allowed full access to the system.

And this is one of the reasons that the State of Florida not only has full time digital, but also full time encryption, and has full time ESK engaged on thier EDACS Provoice. To keep ANYONE not athorized by the State to hear anything OFF. This is also the very reason that the a county I know of went with the VSELP format of ASTRO from Motorola... because you had to have a VSELP programmed radio to hear it much less access it.... The Sheriff of that County specifically stated on all the Press Accesses that they specifically want to be sure NO ONE can monitor them again.....
Luckily time has made sure that very soon they must switch to the newest ASTRO format, which is monitorable.. though SO will most likely now go to full time encryption.

 

[N4DES]

They can be used as a scanner, however, they are extremly limited as a scanner since you will only be able to scan 16 talkgroups and no more.

In trunking it's 10 talk-groups and in conventional it's 16 channel assignments. A scanner is much more efficient as it does cross-system scanning much better than the XTS does.

 

[SCPD]

Why not just get a good quality scanner? They're less expensive, i.e., batteries, cost of the radio, chargers, etc., and you don't have to worry about getting it programmed by someone. Getting someone to program it for you could be expensive(?) or you could do it yourself, if you want to pay the price for the R.S.S., R.I.B., cables, and computer. Then you have to be concerned about reprogramming if the TRS has new frequencies or talkgroups added and so on and so on.

My guess is there would be an approximate layout of $2500 minimum(?).

 

[k0pwo]

Just once more.. It is totally possible to use a motorola astro capable radio on a 9600 baud astro digital system and not have it affiliate and it will monitor the system. it will monitor your scan list. It is not easy to do, but it can be done. And I stand corrected. I did mean 10 talkgroups not 16 which is in fact for conventional systems. I have seen it done and I have programmed a radio to do it. However, it is not worth the time or the effort to use the radio as a receive only radio. When it come to moto astro digital systems you are money, and time ahead by using a scanner.

Dave

 

[scanlist]

Add this to the potential hazards of carrying a "Real radio"

For the "Scanners suck" folks a very interesting situation regarding certain ebay XTS radios has been launched by mot's legal department.

This thread is quite extensive.

http://batboard.batlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=42828

Would ebay give up names of buyers of other radios if the manufacturer demands it like say M/A Com?

Phil.

 

[SCPD]

Yeah, eBay will give up any information to anyone they feel threatened by. They’re a bunch of wimps. Their official policy with law enforcement is that if you fax them a letter with your department’s letter head on it, they will send you any information you want.

Sure makes it nice for the L.E. folks, they don't have to worry about those pesky warrants or anything.

You probably click on something nobody reads when you sign up that protects them from any civil action by you.

I'm sure Mot. just sent them a threatening letter too, to get the info they wanted.

 

[Todd-NG]

Yeah, eBay will give up any information to anyone they feel threatened by. They’re a bunch of wimps. Their official policy with law enforcement is that if you fax them a letter with your department’s letter head on it, they will send you any information you want.

Sure makes it nice for the L.E. folks, they don't have to worry about those pesky warrants or anything.

You probably click on something nobody reads when you sign up that protects them from any civil action by you.

I'm sure Mot. just sent them a threatening letter too, to get the info they wanted.

Logitec is right; eBay does give out user information to any law enforcement agency that requests it, usually without any warrants. If Motorola didn't contact eBay directly to get the info, I'm sure they probably know one or two people in law enforcement :wink: that they could get to send in a request for the information they wanted! If anyone is interested in reading about eBay's policies on user information and how they share it with L.E. I have posted a link below. It's interesting to note that since the very beginning of eBay in 1995, they have kept every bit of information that has come through the site, including (according to the article) what items you have browsed, even if you never placed a bid on it, they have it on record that you at least :shock: looked :shock: at it!

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=264863

Todd