This may be a dumb question....

[TXFirefighter112]

I was listening to the local FD today and they must have had a record number of walked over transmissions due to other units keying up. I know that radio protocols clearly state that you are to make sure the air is clear before hitting the PTT to avoid that, but this morning a lot of the units were keying up almost simultaneously. This normally doesnt pose a problem, but what if one of them had urgent or emergency traffic? So this got me to thinking, is there anyway to program a radio system so that when two radios key up on the same talkgroup the second one to key up gets bumped to another talkgroup?

 

[N_Jay]

I was listening to the local FD today and they must have had a record number of walked over transmissions due to other units keying up. I know that radio protocols clearly state that you are to make sure the air is clear before hitting the PTT to avoid that, but this morning a lot of the units were keying up almost simultaneously. This normally doesnt pose a problem, but what if one of them had urgent or emergency traffic? So this got me to thinking, is there anyway to program a radio system so that when two radios key up on the same talkgroup the second one to key up gets bumped to another talkgroup?

The system can be set to not allow a person to key on top of someone.

Bumping them to another talkgroup is not a good idea since they should be talking to the people on the talk group they are set for.

If the channel is busy, they they need to wait, or manually go to another (apropriate) talk group, or use the emergency button (if so warranted).

The VERY BAD HABBIT of keying up over people is one of the primary causes of the lack of communications in NYC on 9/11! :evil:

 

[TXFirefighter112]

I am not saying it should be set up to allow units to transmit over eachother, but it happens every day. And neither transmission is even remotley near readable. I was just thinking that if it could be programmed for when a 2nd person keys up at almost the same time, it would send the 2nd person to another talkgroup. This way atleast someone would hear the transmission of both people rather than no one hearing anything at all.

I mean, everyone down here is good about waiting for someone else to be done talking before keying up, but damn, they sure do know how to make everyone key up all at once, and then everyone that was trying to talk assumes that the person they were talking to heard them. Then dispatch comes on and says multiple units at once, try again. Then they repeat the process because all 7 units going to the fire try to check enroute again (or whatever the situation was) and the process usually repeats 2 or 3 times until dispatch finally gets smart and calls units 1 by 1.

 

[tglendye]

... is there anyway to program a radio system so that when two radios key up on the same talkgroup the second one to key up gets bumped to another talkgroup?

I don't know about a radio system, but you can program individual radios. I realize this is the trunking forum, but when the HT1000's 1st came out, a neighboring department had it set up so they could not transmit when the repeater (on a conventional system) was active. The problem was the repeater had a couple seconds of hang-time, and they had to wait for it to drop before they could talk. I think they had that function disabled.

 

[N_Jay]

I am not saying it should be set up to allow units to transmit over eachother, but it happens every day. And neither transmission is even remotley near readable. I was just thinking that if it could be programmed for when a 2nd person keys up at almost the same time, it would send the 2nd person to another talkgroup. This way atleast someone would hear the transmission of both people rather than no one hearing anything at all.

I mean, everyone down here is good about waiting for someone else to be done talking before keying up, but damn, they sure do know how to make everyone key up all at once, and then everyone that was trying to talk assumes that the person they were talking to heard them. Then dispatch comes on and says multiple units at once, try again. Then they repeat the process because all 7 units going to the fire try to check enroute again (or whatever the situation was) and the process usually repeats 2 or 3 times until dispatch finally gets smart and calls units 1 by 1.

This problem is fixed with training.

When you notice a double (or are told by dispatch) wait to see if the other traffic is higher priority, unless yours is life or death, then jump on it.
Rairly do two people wait the same length of time.

Not every call is to dispatch, can you imagine what would happen if teh call went to another talk group, but the message was for someone on the first talk group.
It would just have to be repeated, or worse yet it would confuse the other group.

 

[N_Jay]

... is there anyway to program a radio system so that when two radios key up on the same talkgroup the second one to key up gets bumped to another talkgroup?

I don't know about a radio system, but you can program individual radios. I realize this is the trunking forum, but when the HT1000's 1st came out, a neighboring department had it set up so they could not transmit when the repeater (on a conventional system) was active. The problem was the repeater had a couple seconds of hang-time, and they had to wait for it to drop before they could talk. I think they had that function disabled.

In trunking it should be imeadiate, not related to teh repeater hang time.
In conventioanl you need to have it based on PL, then have the repeater drop PL right away.

 

[TXFirefighter112]

Rairly do two people wait the same length of time.

Well somehow the guys in Carrollton have an uncanny knack for doing just that. It's really fun when more than 2 units key up. They all think only one other person has keyed up, and as soon as the first one is done transmitting, the 2nd and 3rd (and maybe 4th and 5th) immediately walk all over eachother again. And usually when this happens here, all the units have the same priority traffic as it most often occurs when multiple units are checking enroute/out at a call.

And I realize that not all calls are to dispatch, but during a major event like a fire there are only 2 people that actually need to hear urgent/emergency traffic, they are dispatch and the IC. Both of whom monitor the dispatch channel in addition to the fireground channel. As long as one of those two hears it, they can foward the message on to the proper people (ie the RIC team).

 

[loumaag]

As N_Jay said earlier, the system should be programmed not to allow doubles. Most trunking systems are programmed that way and the system manager of this one needs to get a clue. Basically if it is programmed correctly if you press your PTT just a milisecond after someone else, you are supposed to get a busy signal, if you continue to press your PTT, you are holding a brick until you let it go. Pretty soon you learn not to try and talk after gettting a busy signal. Or more properly, you learn to wait for the channel grant signal before you talk. Of course the Emergency Button would override the in prgress transmission, but that is another issue. What you are describing sounds more like a conventional repeater situation and as I said before, the system manager needs to catch the clue bus. :?

 

[INDY72]

Not to mantion that when a TRS is set up there usually is a brain on the team that actually thinks: Thus sets up say for an FD-

This type of TG scenario-

Dispatch
(Possibly an alternate if its a reallyyy busy department)
Mulitple Fireground/Tacticals
Admin TG's
Car to Car/Chatter/Talk/BS TG's
Training TG's
And used properly this should elliminate "walkover", add in the aforementioned "busy signals" and you get usually effecient system usage. Any system that has constant "walkover" on TG's iether has A: LOUSY training in place, B: Wayyy too few TG's, C: Poor design per usage, or a combination of all the above.

 

[tglendye]

Just curious, what type of traffic is coming accross the radio where 7 units try to key up @ the same time? Are these private units? Sounds like too many people with radios- or @ least too many people with unnecessary radio traffic.

 

[TXFirefighter112]

Down here a 1 alarm assignment is 3 engines, 1 truck, the battalion, 1 medic and the air truck. Thus 7 units all trying to key up and check enroute at the same time.

As for the programming the radios to give a busy signal, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt. I've ridden out once on E-112 and they kept getting busy signals when no one was transmitting. The captain even switched to another talk group, made contact with the dispatcher there and specifically asked if anyone had a stuck button on Tac-1, the dispatcher said that no one had keyed up in the last hour.

 

[N_Jay]

Down here a 1 alarm assignment is 3 engines, 1 truck, the battalion, 1 medic and the air truck. Thus 7 units all trying to key up and check enroute at the same time.

Is there a contest to call enroute first?

Talk about the least improtant traffic causing the biggest problems.

 

[TXFirefighter112]

Well, its really fun when they arrive on scene at the same time as well. Then they are all trying to check out, give sizups, orders, and assume command at the same time as well. But this doesnt happen as often, as the call would have to be on the border of multiple response districts.
The reason I went with using checking enroute as an illustration, is simply that it is the instance that occurs most often.

 

[N_Jay]

Well, its really fun when they arrive on scene at the same time as well. Then they are all trying to check out, give sizups, orders, and assume command at the same time as well. But this doesnt happen as often, as the call would have to be on the border of multiple response districts.
The reason I went with using checking enroute as an illustration, is simply that it is the instance that occurs most often.

T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G!!!! :wink:

Lots of bigger depertments don't have this trouble.

Your guys must be trying hard! :twisted:

 

[JoeyC]

When I lived in MD many years ago, the (unprofessional) firemen in the county fire department would get a kick out of making their response radio traffic with the windows open, sirens wailing and preceeded by 3 or 4 seconds of pure siren. Before the days of MDTs it was quite a symphony (and annoyance) after a multi-unit assignment was dispatched. Then I moved to CA and the department there was very professional (no transmitting over the radio with siren wailing and windows open unless absolutely necessary). The MD department would arrive on the scene nilly-willy and some bozo would call out assignments (on the fly) to the other arriving units. In CA the dispatched units knew their assignment. Radio traffic was wild and crazy in PG county MD, and very structured and sane in San Diego CA.

What a difference a little leadership & training can make.