Time to Vacate 470-512 MHZ!

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W2SJW

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Wow, that just sucks!

I know many in South Jersey are dumping T-Band to get away from DTV interference, but to now have it forced...
 

GTR8000

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In approximately 11 years, public safety organizations will be required to give back spectrum currently in use in the T Band. The agreement includes provisions to pay for their relocation to the 700 MHz band.
Yes, let's go ahead and push the panic button a full decade in advance of the giveback, that's logical. And let's also ignore the fact that the cost of relocation off T-Band will be paid for, because that's obviously an insignificant fact!

How about we look at the bigger picture, which is that public safety will no longer be forced to give up the 700 spectrum that quite a few multi-million dollar trunked systems are currently being built out on.

Seriously, let's have a bit of perspective here, okay?
 

KB5ILY

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"The legislation will also include language that will reallocate 700 MHz D Block spectrum to emergency responders, as well as provide $7 billion in federal grant money to deploy a nationwide LTE wireless broadband network for emergency responders. "
 

W2SJW

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I know, I know. ;)

It's just one of those minor 'WTF' moments - my county just fired up their new T-band P25 system for testing this week...
 

GTR8000

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I'm not suggesting that it's not an insignificant bit of news, clearly it is. There are a ton of T-Band systems that will be affected by it. I'm just saying that it's not happening tomorrow. 11 years is a bit of a ways out. Sure, time flies, but we also don't even know what other legislation will come down the pike in the next decade that might affect these systems anyway. 6.25 kHz super-narrowbanding, for example.
 

ipfd320

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7 Billion Dollars aren,t going to go far--think about it--across the nation all the responders and god knows who else has to be equipped with these radios / antanna set ups and dont forget the radio companies who will rip every one off--also keep in mind how long this would take to build?.They cant even get our nation back on their feet but they can go ahead an approve this kind of money for something we dont need...This is just my point of view
 

SCPD

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Perhaps this is attempt by the "powers" that be to get "all" public safety on the same "page" i.e band and or mode. Never mind the huge profits the commercial radio companies will make with "new" equipment sales. Maybe its just me, However, I see something little more sinister in the long term and all this may be part and parcel of this overall whole plan. Is the availability of agencies to go "dark" to the scanning public at a moments notice for national internal security reasons.
We all know what "dark" means? Right?
I also not I do not want to engage in this thread a discussion on the "dark" subject, since it has been addressed in other threads in RR forums.

FYI: dark = encryption

Thanks
 

mancow

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I think you will find that agencies will be dark to listeners permanently once on lte. It's basically cellular.
 

902

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It's not as elaborate as you think...

Kenny, it's simply not that organized that the powers that be wanted to have public safety on the same page. It's more about Congressional staffers being able to claim a "victory" by holding the D block hostage unless they got something of equal value. They were offered 4.9 GHz - ALL 50 MHz of it - and they refused it because it was worthless to the cellular industry (which is becoming the 4G LTE/data industry) that they are pandering to. These people believe public safety has far too many resources, and that public safety needs to be paying a radio bill to some carrier. Earlier iterations had Congress selling off the 440 ham band and 450-470, as well as the 700 MHz narrowband spectrum. There was no benevolence in this at all. I won't go any deeper.

As for offering up 700 or 800 MHz, remember that most counties were offered up a much smaller amount of spectrum in the 700 MHz packing. It will be impossible for a 1:1 exchange and this essentially forces lower units of government into sharing arrangements with higher levels of government. For example, Bergen County (which, ironically is building its own T-Band system, dumpster fodder just about the time it gets loaded) will have to take on the displaced municipalities which maintained their own discrete systems. That also means that 700 MHz will have to be used more efficiently than it is and aggressive multiplexing schemes for voicepath gain will have to be used. Something like 4-TDMA so that channels won't get orphaned.

And, let's also keep in mind that there are many agencies with many needs. Because one dominant agency in a region got its wish, it doesn't mean anyone else did. As I said in another post: Claim victory. Backslaps for all.
 

r60

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10 years

10 years is really not much time.

If my memory serves me, narrowbanding was about a ten year notice window.

Look at how many users have still not narrowbanded. Narrowbanding is a simple
project compared to what has been proposed.

This proposal is much more significant in many ways as to the impact of those
residing in 470-512.

As proposed it will wipe out hundreds of systems and tens of thousands of subcribers.
There are so many variables and so little time.

This is a BIG pill to swallow. IMHO this is real ugly.

I wonder how NYC DOITT feels about this? Anyone?
 

902

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10 years is really not much time.

If my memory serves me, narrowbanding was about a ten year notice window.

Look at how many users have still not narrowbanded. Narrowbanding is a simple
project compared to what has been proposed.

This proposal is much more significant in many ways as to the impact of those
residing in 470-512.

As proposed it will wipe out hundreds of systems and tens of thousands of subcribers.
There are so many variables and so little time.

This is a BIG pill to swallow. IMHO this is real ugly.

I wonder how NYC DOITT feels about this? Anyone?
Narrowbanding had more leadtime and, for many of the simpler systems, it's just a matter of reprogramming. The whole process took maybe 20 years, but the date was solidified around 2003. The original date was set further into the future, but was shortened.

For meaningful solution, the FCC could have made some changes to VHF the way they intended to with "refarming" circa 1996, but they took the easy way out, and I don't think there is much benefit to narrowbanding VHF, except for the manufacturers who get to finally kill off those unkillable radios. I can only imagine how many Motracs are still working fine day after day. Of course, that represents a loss for the manufacturers because not only are they not buying anything new, they aren't paying a recurring charge to anyone for their connectivity.

I think the braintrust involved in this has a skewed sense of amortization. That's the hazard of being from a big, well-funded agency, you don't see or maybe don't care about the smaller venues that live in your shadow. And, that mindset might even apply to the other agencies within the same city (read: the "they're on their own" mentality).

Most of the systems I know of have been implemented as definitive solutions, with the first generation expected to perform for at least 15 years. It's difficult to find a product now that would last that long without being sunset. Moving to the "smartphone" form factor would cycle subscriber units out probably every 18 months (if not sooner), not to mention how much it would cost to self-maintain however many eNB and infrastructure in physical maintenance and firmware upgrades.

So, obvious victory for the big guys who wanted the technology all along (and it's not that much spectrum... it'll be gobbled right away up by poor throughput management), but virtually most of NJ, not so much.

I don't know. I'm as shocked and disappointed as the next guy, and I certainly don't think the smaller communities relying on T-Band will ever be made whole, especially if they migrated off deficient VHF systems and wanted to go to 800 in the first place, but found whatever frequencies were taken by the big boys before they even had a chance to apply. That's how/why T-Band became widely available. It's relief spectrum. There aren't enough frequencies that can be pulled from bodily orifices to make it happen. Judging by past performance (the collossal political Charlie Foxtrot money-grab known as 800 MHz rebanding), $7B isn't enough cash, either.
 

kb2vxa

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Just ducky, I have a sneaky suspicion the NAB is behind this. No major problem with analog TV when ducting occurred but with the all or nothing nature of 8VSB digital that requires a near perfect signal to operate secondary allocations get kicked off the band. Have any of you considered looking at the other side of this coin? The NAB is the broadcast god and a powerful lobby in Washington, what do a few FCC license fees amount to in the money mill? NOTHING!

Now that I have THAT out of my system I can think a little closer to home. Ocean County has stopped complaining and set its sights on migration. First they had a number of UHF channels licensed for a new trunked system, no build-out to date. They'll lose OCPS 1 through 12 but not A through L so I wonder what they'll do with them eventually if at all. That was kind of a black ops affair but now they're openly eying the 700MHz D Block now the rush is on rather like when "they" thought 800 was the best thing to come along since sliced bread but found out differently.

But then it struck me!

There's a lady who's sure all her radios are old
And she's buying the stairway to seven.
When she gets there she knows, if the bands are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying the stairway to seven.

There's a license on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know FCC words have two meanings.
On a tower by the brook, there's an antenna that sings,
Sometimes all our transmissions are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.
 

gewecke

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Just ducky, I have a sneaky suspicion the NAB is behind this. No major problem with analog TV when ducting occurred but with the all or nothing nature of 8VSB digital that requires a near perfect signal to operate secondary allocations get kicked off the band. Have any of you considered looking at the other side of this coin? The NAB is the broadcast god and a powerful lobby in Washington, what do a few FCC license fees amount to in the money mill? NOTHING!

Now that I have THAT out of my system I can think a little closer to home. Ocean County has stopped complaining and set its sights on migration. First they had a number of UHF channels licensed for a new trunked system, no build-out to date. They'll lose OCPS 1 through 12 but not A through L so I wonder what they'll do with them eventually if at all. That was kind of a black ops affair but now they're openly eying the 700MHz D Block now the rush is on rather like when "they" thought 800 was the best thing to come along since sliced bread but found out differently.

But then it struck me!

There's a lady who's sure all her radios are old
And she's buying the stairway to seven.
When she gets there she knows, if the bands are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying the stairway to seven.

There's a license on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know FCC words have two meanings.
On a tower by the brook, there's an antenna that sings,
Sometimes all our transmissions are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

:lol::lol: That's just awesome warren!!

73,
n9zas
 
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