Command30
Member
I did some listening on the West tower today (first time since the weekend), it was obvious right away!
And to confirm - Fire Dispatch was Digital.
And to confirm - Fire Dispatch was Digital.
Toronto
- Thread starter gopherit
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Not to start a hornets nest here but i thought Toronto was going to not only switch to Digital but to the 700 band?
VE3RADIO
Member
I think this is just temporary for the G20 summit.. it is also not P25.. sounds more like NEXEDGE.
I had my scanner on the west ower yesterday around 11 AM, nothing sounded different.
VE3RADIO
Member
I'll bring it with me tomorrow to work.
Hopefully for you guys they stay in the clear. I dont get much of an opportunity to monitor TPS anymore, I barely get the south tower without a decent antenna in Rexdale and my 396 isn't half as good as your 996 or Andy's 246 for picking up signals from my home.
I know this article may be old news... Police move toward $35 million encrypted radios - thestar.com What is the estimated time before TPS goes fully encrypted ?
VE3RADIO
Member
This is not as accurate as you may think ENC has been talked about for YEARS! ever since I can remeber and no doubt the G20 will be ENC.. but I do not think June 26th is the end of the world.. as far as I am concerned it is a good oppertunity for me to pickup some cheap digi equipment from scared forumers.. take a look at these quotes and tell me what you think:
"Although officials acknowledge encryption is coming to Toronto — as soon as the G20 summit in June — nobody wants to discuss specifics, citing “security concerns.” "
-This is a temporary NXDN system that will be patched to the TRS.
"Pugash didn’t give a target date, and the operating budget doesn’t itemize the cost.
However, it’s coming in at a time when there is extraordinary pressure to cut costs. The police services board voted Monday not to trim $5.9 million from the $892.2 million operating budget, as recommended by a review committee. Chief Bill Blair said it would be “irresponsible” and would mean 258 fewer officers on the street."
-A new TRS system with full ENC would cost more than 5.9 million - Toronto is BROKE..and Cheif does not want officers off the street.
"Board chair Alok Mukherjee describes encryption as a “long-term capital expense” the city will benefit from introducing now because Ottawa will pay half the cost under its commitments toward security for the G20."
-Again this is a temp NXDN system - not even sure how this is relevant - if TPS is going to switch to NXDN then well.. its not even ENC and can be monitored with a commercial radio.
"A communications insider said police are still maintaining the old Motorola radio system, but also testing encrypted radios for use in sensitive areas such as the emergency task force, undercover operations and summit preparations, in conjunction with the RCMP"
-They have been using P25 ENC on the MSS channels for the past 3 years.
"Although officials acknowledge encryption is coming to Toronto — as soon as the G20 summit in June — nobody wants to discuss specifics, citing “security concerns.” "
-This is a temporary NXDN system that will be patched to the TRS.
"Pugash didn’t give a target date, and the operating budget doesn’t itemize the cost.
However, it’s coming in at a time when there is extraordinary pressure to cut costs. The police services board voted Monday not to trim $5.9 million from the $892.2 million operating budget, as recommended by a review committee. Chief Bill Blair said it would be “irresponsible” and would mean 258 fewer officers on the street."
-A new TRS system with full ENC would cost more than 5.9 million - Toronto is BROKE..and Cheif does not want officers off the street.
"Board chair Alok Mukherjee describes encryption as a “long-term capital expense” the city will benefit from introducing now because Ottawa will pay half the cost under its commitments toward security for the G20."
-Again this is a temp NXDN system - not even sure how this is relevant - if TPS is going to switch to NXDN then well.. its not even ENC and can be monitored with a commercial radio.
"A communications insider said police are still maintaining the old Motorola radio system, but also testing encrypted radios for use in sensitive areas such as the emergency task force, undercover operations and summit preparations, in conjunction with the RCMP"
-They have been using P25 ENC on the MSS channels for the past 3 years.
Be careful with this one Matt, and not saying it will happen. "You can get a commercial radio to monitor other NXDN traffic, provided it's not encrypted. NXDN supports clear and encrypted modes. The 16-bit basic encryption comes standard with NXDN radios 32,000 possible codes I believe. For users that need a higher level of encryption, AES and DES encryption are available as options."
This is where I am biting my fingers off wondering about a certain NXDN system if you know what I mean:wink:
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VE3RADIO
Member
There is a really nice NXDN Mobile on eBay for under 4 bills right now.. refurb and looks 10/10.. really tempting! and I dont even live in "said" area.
vabiro
Member
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I get it from a fairly reliable source that the encrypted system for G20 is temporary and will dismantled after the G20.
The temp system will only be used on the core areas around the Convention Centre. The rest of the city will remain on thevregular system.
Many of the Toronto system issues are related to the patches between TPS and other services, as well as the temporary system.
I get it from a fairly reliable source that the encrypted system for G20 is temporary and will dismantled after the G20.
The temp system will only be used on the core areas around the Convention Centre. The rest of the city will remain on thevregular system.
Many of the Toronto system issues are related to the patches between TPS and other services, as well as the temporary system.
VE3RADIO
Member
Makes sense.. but then why is Fire/EMS and all PD Districts dispatch using digital? Would not only TFS South, the dispatch channels and 1 and 5 Districts go digi?
vabiro
Member
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I have a non-digital scanner and I am hearing TFS,EMS and TPS fine. No digital.
Having said that, I have noticed a change in the audio that was refered to earlier. It seems most pronounced on 52. I also noticed a beep similar to what I hear on moible repeaters.
Changing to VoIP links between the dispatch and the repeater/base would account for the "digital" sound to the dispatcher voice. It would also make much easier to bridge radio networks when needed.
I think it unlikely that TFS would switch to a digital. There is a lot of discussion in the Fire Fighting standards bodies about the codecs used being a very bad fit with the audio from the masks. The audio quality is bad enough in analogue.
Victor
WZ1 said:
I have a non-digital scanner and I am hearing TFS,EMS and TPS fine. No digital.
Having said that, I have noticed a change in the audio that was refered to earlier. It seems most pronounced on 52. I also noticed a beep similar to what I hear on moible repeaters.
Changing to VoIP links between the dispatch and the repeater/base would account for the "digital" sound to the dispatcher voice. It would also make much easier to bridge radio networks when needed.
I think it unlikely that TFS would switch to a digital. There is a lot of discussion in the Fire Fighting standards bodies about the codecs used being a very bad fit with the audio from the masks. The audio quality is bad enough in analogue.
Victor
- Joined
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Sorry for the long rambling post, but here goes. My take on the switch to digital is that it's just not that simple, and more importantly, it's very expensive.
You don't just have new radios, but you have to lay out the whole new network, make sure you are compatable with everyone else who not-digital - there are supposed to be province wide "universal channels" so police from one city can talk via radio to other police. But most importantly IMO, when you buy any digital radio system, the big cost is you are locked into one brand, and more costly than that, the software lic & upgrades that go with that brand that have to be paid every year.
Right now, with an analog system, every year or 3 or 5 years - whatever your business cycle is - you put put tenders and you can bascially buy radios form anyone who meets the requirements of your needs. For arguement sake, One year you might buy from Kenwood , two years after that from Icom and two years after that you get them form Motorola, and so on and so forth. But the point is, if the radios meet spec, you in theory have a choice.
But with a digital system, you are locked in to brand X, whomever Brand X is, and you aren't going to be changing every couple of years either. Also it seems to me that almost everything you buy today is software driven. I'm pretty certain once you are locked into any digital ssytem, you will be stuck paying big bucks for continoius upgrades. hey, witht eh way things are going, I'm surprized that Wal-mart hasn't figured out a way to make toasters software driven, forcing you to "upgrade" you operating system so your toast doesn't burn on you.
So bottom line is, remember we are still in a recession. Maybe the news and different levels of government say we are out of the woods, and maybe some individuals and companies are doing good, but I personally know too many people without jobs to agree that things are better. Money is tight, and I personally think, it will get tighter and it will get worse before it gets better. As a result, the practical issue is, where will the money come from? Not saying it will never happen or cannot happen, but that's how i see things short term.
You don't just have new radios, but you have to lay out the whole new network, make sure you are compatable with everyone else who not-digital - there are supposed to be province wide "universal channels" so police from one city can talk via radio to other police. But most importantly IMO, when you buy any digital radio system, the big cost is you are locked into one brand, and more costly than that, the software lic & upgrades that go with that brand that have to be paid every year.
Right now, with an analog system, every year or 3 or 5 years - whatever your business cycle is - you put put tenders and you can bascially buy radios form anyone who meets the requirements of your needs. For arguement sake, One year you might buy from Kenwood , two years after that from Icom and two years after that you get them form Motorola, and so on and so forth. But the point is, if the radios meet spec, you in theory have a choice.
But with a digital system, you are locked in to brand X, whomever Brand X is, and you aren't going to be changing every couple of years either. Also it seems to me that almost everything you buy today is software driven. I'm pretty certain once you are locked into any digital ssytem, you will be stuck paying big bucks for continoius upgrades. hey, witht eh way things are going, I'm surprized that Wal-mart hasn't figured out a way to make toasters software driven, forcing you to "upgrade" you operating system so your toast doesn't burn on you.
So bottom line is, remember we are still in a recession. Maybe the news and different levels of government say we are out of the woods, and maybe some individuals and companies are doing good, but I personally know too many people without jobs to agree that things are better. Money is tight, and I personally think, it will get tighter and it will get worse before it gets better. As a result, the practical issue is, where will the money come from? Not saying it will never happen or cannot happen, but that's how i see things short term.
VE3RADIO
Member
The system is still analog - that being said dispatch is 100% digital - it is just being re-broadcast in analog... how come nobody can hear this? Listen carefully and you will hear it.. they sound like they have clothpins on their nose when they talk.
Considering Toronto is already 800Mhz, switching to digital will not affect their interoperability with other forces one bit. Keep in mind that digital radios almost always have analog operation as well. Whatever they're using for interoperability now can be reused once they switch to digital.
As far as a new network goes, yes, a lot of the infrastructure will need to be changed. Same as a new analog system.
Not true at all.
By choosing P25, they have bought a system that many manufacturers support.
The RCMP's new system has EADS infrastructure and Motorola end user gear.
They could have easily bought their infrastructure from Daniels, Motorola or Harris and the end user gear could have come from a bunch of different vendors.
I've seen ICOM, Harris, Thales, Motorola and EF Johnson end user gear. Pretty sure Kenwood and Tait also make P25 end user gear.
vabiro
Member
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That's the diference in audio I'm referring to.
They're probably using VoIP for the link between the dispatch centre and the base station/repeater.
Some people may not notice a difference because of the type of radio/scanner they are using.
Victor
WZ1 said:
That's the diference in audio I'm referring to.
They're probably using VoIP for the link between the dispatch centre and the base station/repeater.
Some people may not notice a difference because of the type of radio/scanner they are using.
Victor
PDS Encryption
Just thought I might add something i overheard today. Was discussion about either PDS1 or PD01 needing to go into the shop to "get encrypted on the radio for G20" Sounds to me like it could confirm what has previously been said about temporary encryption for the summit?
Just thought I might add something i overheard today. Was discussion about either PDS1 or PD01 needing to go into the shop to "get encrypted on the radio for G20" Sounds to me like it could confirm what has previously been said about temporary encryption for the summit?
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