TOS Question - Medevac Channel

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fredva

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Would broadcasting a frequency which is used primarily for communications between on-scene ground units and incoming medevac helicopters violate the TOS? The frequency I'm thinking about would include descriptions of the landing zone, warnings to the aircrew of nearby obstructions, and also include reports on the patient's condition, weight, and possibly age. I know dedicated ambulance-to-hospital channels are banned, but the medevac channel seems to be a bit of a gray area to me.
 

richtidd

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Would broadcasting a frequency which is used primarily for communications between on-scene ground units and incoming medevac helicopters violate the TOS? The frequency I'm thinking about would include descriptions of the landing zone, warnings to the aircrew of nearby obstructions, and also include reports on the patient's condition, weight, and possibly age. I know dedicated ambulance-to-hospital channels are banned, but the medevac channel seems to be a bit of a gray area to me.
NO. Not allowed. We do not allow reports on the patient's condition, weight, and possibly age etc. Same as ambulance-to-hospital.
Here is the policy as listed on your feed site:

Fire / EMS / Rescue Feeds:
I agree to ONLY broadcast routine dispatch operations and fireground / on scene operations for fire, EMS, and rescue agencies.

I agree to NOT broadcast dedicated channels or talkgroups used for ambulance to hospital communications.

I agree to NOT broadcast dedicated channels or talkgroups related to investigations, arson, and fire marshal activities.
 
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DaveNF2G

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The TOS (or its interpretation) gets more bizarre by the day.
 

16b

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Actually, based on the TOS quoted above, scene-to-helicopter communications would fall under "fireground / on scene operations." Definitely not ambulance-to-hospital. Sounds like you're OK to broadcast it.
 

SCPD

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Actually, based on the TOS quoted above, scene-to-helicopter communications would fall under "fireground / on scene operations." Definitely not ambulance-to-hospital. Sounds like you're OK to broadcast it.
I wouldn't. richtidd is a Live Audio Administrator and knows what is and isn't allowed. He did tell him no.
 

Jay911

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I wouldn't. richtidd is a Live Audio Administrator and knows what is and isn't allowed. He did tell him no.
He told him no based on, in my opinion, incorrect information.

Speaking as a responder who does this kind of work, communications between the scene and a helicopter are not of the patient details variety - any more so than you'd find on a regular dispatch channel, i.e. "25 year old male with mid-line pain and tenderness post crash into a tree while snowboarding, no loss of consciousness, helmet was being worn". More often, the conversation on a fireground/helicopter channel is going to involve "winds are from the south at 14 knots, there are wires on the west side of the road at the ditch edge, your landing zone is between the two police cars on the road, landing zone officer has the red batons and is in fire fighting gear."

Communications between a fireground and a helicopter, be it a medical helicopter, a forestry helicopter, a police helicopter, etc., should be considered fireground communications. There's no HIPAA component to it.
 

richtidd

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We do not allow amb to hosp or that type communications to be on the feed.

The often reports on the patient's condition, weight, and possibly age etc.
If that is on a channel, it cannot be broadcast.

That is all I was saying no to.

General on-scene ground units and incoming medevac helicopters, to landing zones etc is OK.

We have many feeds with that.

Not allowed if they are talking to a hospital with patient info etc.,

Example:
Sometimes the may use one ch for inbound cord to the LZ & then another ch to the hosp.

The inbound & cord ch is OK.

The helo to hosp is not.
I agree to NOT broadcast dedicated channels or talkgroups used for ambulance to hospital communications.

If they use one ch for both, then that ch may may be subject to not being approved for the feed.
 
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Jay911

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(regarding reports given by fire/rescue/EMS to incoming medical helicopters)
The often reports on the patient's condition, weight, and possibly age etc.
If that is on a channel, it cannot be broadcast.
I agree to NOT broadcast dedicated channels or talkgroups used for ambulance to hospital communications.
The above two examples are nowhere near the same thing.

One is a helicopter crew being advised of the situation they are to expect when they arrive on scene. Sometimes this may include non-identifying patient information such as weight (essential to the helicopter pilots to manage their flight) and condition (essential to the medical crew to manage their care). This is far from exclusively the only transmission that would go on such a channel.

The other is a transmission from an ambulance crew to a hospital regarding much of the same information, specifically relating to the patient, including potentially identifying information, and as stated, is generally on a channel 'dedicated' for such use.

The OP was asking about a fireground channel primarily used to co-ordinate operations at scene, particularly involving the operations of a medical helicopter both in terms of the flight operations and the medical care given onboard (or soon to be given onboard). It has nothing to do with any hospital, or the type of information channel referenced in the RR live audio TOS. Given that fact, I still say it was wrong to say (in all caps) "NO" it is not permissible for the OP to have said channel in his feed.
 

richtidd

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The above two examples are nowhere near the same thing.

One is a helicopter crew being advised of the situation they are to expect when they arrive on scene. Sometimes this may include non-identifying patient information such as weight (essential to the helicopter pilots to manage their flight) and condition (essential to the medical crew to manage their care). This is far from exclusively the only transmission that would go on such a channel.

The other is a transmission from an ambulance crew to a hospital regarding much of the same information, specifically relating to the patient, including potentially identifying information, and as stated, is generally on a channel 'dedicated' for such use.

The OP was asking about a fireground channel primarily used to co-ordinate operations at scene, particularly involving the operations of a medical helicopter both in terms of the flight operations and the medical care given onboard (or soon to be given onboard). It has nothing to do with any hospital, or the type of information channel referenced in the RR live audio TOS. Given that fact, I still say it was wrong to say (in all caps) "NO" it is not permissible for the OP to have said channel in his feed.
Again I was responding to the patient info part. Nothing more.

Well here is what we do when we have a feed with patent info given on the feed: We disable that feed. Then the feed owner has to explain to our TOS violation letter.
 

ibagli

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We do not allow amb to hosp or that type communications to be on the feed.

The often reports on the patient's condition, weight, and possibly age etc.
If that is on a channel, it cannot be broadcast.
Why isn't that information contained in the terms of service? The rule you've quoted twice does not say that.
 

Jay911

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Again I was responding to the patient info part. Nothing more.

Well here is what we do when we have a feed with patent info given on the feed: We disable that feed. Then the feed owner has to explain to our TOS violation letter.
So when the explanation is "it's on a channel that's fireground in nature and not dedicated for patient details", what's your response?

Where do you draw the line? If I am working on my fire department's rescue truck and transmit to my fire dispatcher "Tell EMS we have a 28 year old female not conscious not breathing, CPR is in progress", that's patient information. So you'd disable my feed over that? Even though that channel is used primarily for communicating with fire dispatch about the responses of a fire/rescue agency?
 

nunyax

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Below is Lindsay's quote from his TOS thread http://forums.radioreference.com/1145092-post1.html

2) If an agency has a dedicated frequency for ambulance to hospital communications, it is not allow to be on the feed. If the EMS agency passes patient reports over the regular EMS Dispatch channel, that's OK.
I have always taken the above post by Lindsay to mean that any patient info mentioned by onscene personnel to a medical helicopter on a fire tac/fireground channel was okay since it wasn't a channel dedicated to patient reports. If it's okay to feed a dispatch channel that also relays patient reports, it should be okay for ground-to-air comms that may include a patient report as well.
 

Jay911

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I have always taken the above post by Lindsay to mean that any patient info mentioned by onscene personnel to a medical helicopter on a fire tac/fireground channel was okay since it wasn't a channel dedicated to patient reports. If it's okay to feed a dispatch channel that also relays patient reports, it should be okay for ground-to-air comms that may include a patient report as well.
That's my take on it too, but the OP posed that exact scenario and was told 'no'.
 

fredva

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It is true that some patient info is often broadcast over the dispatch channel, when an on-scene crew originally requests the dispatcher to get a helicopter, for example.
 

mikewazowski

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Since the OP was asking about a channel that is not dedicated to ambulance to hospital communications, as per the TOS that was quoted, the answer should be that the channel is fine.
 

mikewazowski

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That's my take on it too, but the OP posed that exact scenario and was told 'no'.
That's my take on it too.

If RR does not allow that channel, than any agency that handles tiered medicals on their regular dispatch or TAC channels would also not be permitted.

All fire channels in my area would be disallowed as they often beat EMS to the scene and relay the exact same information to dispatch.

I think the keyword in the TOS is "dedicated" and the OP's channel does not fit.
 
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DaveNF2G

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I concur with Mike and Jay911. The information that is transmitted over any aeromed dispatch channel is exactly about the patient's condition and weight (because they are aircraft loading and balance factors). That information must be relayed from the scene by radio to the dispatcher who will be contacting the aeromed service.

According to the TOS, the information is not prohibited when it is sent from the incident scene, nor is it prohibited when given to the aeromed crew via the dispatch or fireground channel. Logically, it is not prohibited when confirmed between the landing zone and the aeromed unit on the LZ channel, either.
 

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Fredva, I think you are OK as Lindsay stated, as long as it is not a dedicated ambulance / hospital channel then you are good. Anyone who works in the fire / EMS service or who listens to any type of scanner knows full well that Helicopter operations happen on your typical dispatch channel and very basic relevant information is passed across those channels as well as stated above: "tell medivac we have a 28yo patient in cardiac arrest" That comes across most dispatch channels on a daily basis which is every day fire ground information.

I say broadcast the channel.
 

fredva

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Thank you - I appreciate everybody's input. At this point, I believe the frequency I was asking about would be categorized as a fireground channel, and the inclusion of some patient info shouldn't violate the terms of service anymore than patient info routinely broadcast over other fireground channels and primary dispatch channels.
 
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