Trunked DMR Color Codes Missing

[mciupa]

I pose this query to the database folks - are there any plans afoot to begin to upgrade the database to handle stuff like color codes, slots, etc? It seems the old tried and true answer that no scanners handle this is rather short-sighted, given that we know that ham radios and SDRs can, quite apart from any commercial radios that are also DMR capable.

Mike

In regards to policy change only Lindsay will have that answer. We are not privy to any pending information.

 

[mikey60]

DMR Tier II is not trunked. The talkgroup/slot concept is about who is using which of the two (and there are only two) time slices on the frequency. MotoTRBO is a proprietary form of DMR, which is an open standard.

Understood and correct, however, multiple users can use those slots (albeit one at a time per slot). While not true trunking, I see listings in the RR database that show multiple talkgroups in use on a single DMR channel (not to mention HAM networks). It's similar to the old community repeaters where different users used different CTCSS codes to access the repeater. The other users of the repeater didn't hear them, but couldn't use the repeater while another user was using it.

Mike

 

[RayAir]

And conventional DMR can be complicated even more (as far as accurate db info). I found 4 DMR conventional repeater freq's with multiple talk groups. If traffic is low all the voice will be on TS:1, if the system is active any of the talk groups can switch between TS1 and TS2. There appears to be 3-4 talk groups tied to each individual repeater. It was installed by a local radio shop for a large hotel.

They are using Hytera pseudo trunk. No control channel, no rest channel like Hytera XPT. The repeater assigns the groups to whichever slot isn't busy.

 

[wa8pyr]

Not yet. . .

As Mike mentioned in an earlier message, color codes for other than DMR conventional repeaters is currently being placed in the Wiki; we're putting it there pending the day when we can put it in the database.

And here's the old tried-and-true response, Mike. . .

It's been pointed out previously in this and other forums that RadioReference is scanner-centric, and at this time there is only one awfully expensive scanner capable of monitoring DMR. Quite a bit of effort is required to edit existing tables and add new tables to the database to cover all the variables for these systems, which takes quite a bit of planning and effort to get it right so it doesn't break the database. If and when more scanners (capable of being operated by ordinary humans) arrive on the wider market which are capable of monitoring these systems, we'll put forth the considerable effort to change the internal workings of the database.

Also as mentioned previously, information on RadioReference is is intended for personal, hobby use only in scanners, and is not provided, intended or recommended for programming of commercial radios to access or monitor commercial systems.

 

[ka3jjz]

That AOR is not a scanner by any means, Tom. It's a very expensive receiver that happens to have some scanning capability, but certainly not like a Uniden or GRE scanner.

And I'm afraid you're ignoring an admittedly secondary market - the ham community. Else why have all those repeaters in the database, and have software from RT Systems and CHIRP able to access it? There are some DMR ham repeaters(as evidenced by websites that cater to this, such as (I think) that DMR-MARC site) and it is a small, but growing market. There's even a few DMR capable handhelds, as mentioned earlier. Why you appear to dismiss that market, given the reach RT systems has, is,frankly, a mystery.

SDRs are a rapidly growing market (probably a faster growing market than the Ham DMR one), and one must remember that you don't necessarily need to use the web service to get data out of the database. Copy / paste methods using Excel and similar may not be as elegant, but they work.

The argument that the data is supposed to be 'scanner centric' doesn't hold water anymore, given these facts. It can be, and likely is, used by other apps as well, even if it's not intended to be so.

Oh and just a small correction - not only do we catalog DMR single frequency (so-called 'conventional') systems, we catalog trunk systems in the wiki, too.

Mike

 

[Voyager]

Technically P25 conventional could be considered the same way, although I can't say I've seen it used that way..

To get back to the color code issue though. One example of a three frequency trunked Capacity Plus MOTOTrbo system that has a different color code for each frequency is the Detroit Zoological Society(Detroit Zoological Society Trunking System, Royal Oak, Michigan - Scanner Frequencies). I have the system programmed into my DMR radio and can scan it. It takes a bit of setup to do, but it works. Adding the color code for DMR trunking systems would have to get down to setting the color code at the frequency level on each site to be effective.

I've seen conventional P25 with multiple TGs. In a sense, those could be listed as single-channel trunked even though they are technically not trunked. But, the RR format would be exactly the same as trunked, so the template already exists for the channel with all the TG slots and the frequency - all that needs added is the CC. The description could include which slot is used if it is a fixed slot (which conventionally usually is). Maybe that's a use for the Description field.

As for the CCs, many Cap+ systems use different CCs on the various LCNs. Some Con+ systems use different CCs on each site.

 

[Voyager]

They are using Hytera pseudo trunk. No control channel, no rest channel like Hytera XPT.

That should simply be yet another trunk type since it is trunked.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Hytera calls it "pseudo trunking" because it simulates trunking without infringing on any Motorola patents.

 

[Voyager]

The "pseudo" about it is that it's similar to LTR where the trunking "smarts" are in the radio rather than in the system. The radio simply selects the first frequency/slot that is not in use.

 

[slicerwizard]

Also as mentioned previously, information on RadioReference is is intended for personal, hobby use only in scanners, and is not provided, intended or recommended for programming of commercial radios to access or monitor commercial systems.

I guess that explains all of the hex entries.

Hytera calls it "pseudo trunking" because it simulates trunking without infringing on any Motorola patents.

The name has nothing to do with patents.

 

[blantonl]

Folks,

We already have the ability to store and track DMR conventional color codes - it's done in the tone entry field and is represented by "# CC"

 

[bc780l]

Perhaps to better consolidate DMR info needed usinsg the existing database structure, use the tone field like this for each frequency in a system:

T#/C#/G#
Timeslot
Color Code
Group

Example, on a single frequency system using both timeslots (and yes, I've seen exactly this in use):

455.5555 T1/C5/G1001
455.5555 T2/C16/G5009

Yes, duplicate the frequency if used in both slots. Easy way of using the existing DB structure and yet providing all the information needed per frequency. It works. It's simple. It doesn't need to go to another area to store/retrieve other information.

 

[blantonl]

Perhaps to better consolidate DMR info needed usinsg the existing database structure, use the tone field like this for each frequency in a system:

T#/C#/G#
Timeslot
Color Code
Group

Example, on a single frequency system using both timeslots (and yes, I've seen exactly this in use):

455.5555 T1/C5/G1001
455.5555 T2/C16/G5009

Yes, duplicate the frequency if used in both slots. Easy way of using the existing DB structure and yet providing all the information needed per frequency. It works. It's simple. It doesn't need to go to another area to store/retrieve other information.

That is actually the route that we are going - however the database doesn't support this yet... the "Tone" field is enforced to our current standards for use.

We're currently evaluating all of the data architecture for DMR/TRBO systems, both conventional and trunked, and do have plans to accommodate all the data points (color codes by frequency for trunked and conventional, time slots for conventional, tg id for conventional etc)

 

[ka3jjz]

Lindsay we have been capturing this data in our wiki, using templates that I had built. While we don't have anything yet that correlates the group to a particular freq / timeslot / color code (since as I understand it, like standard Moto trunking, a group can jump not only from freq to freq, but can also jump to a different slot), once a structure has developed, we have much of the data for the new structure already available

We also have a template built for the 'single channel' DMR systems (currently listed in the conventional section) to break out the individual groups that can use such systems.

Mike

 

[blantonl]

Here's a question for the group. How important is it for us to track the color code associated with a repeater for a trunked DMR/TRBO network?

 

[blantonl]

Lindsay we have been capturing this data in our wiki, using templates that I had built. While we don't have anything yet that correlates the group to a particular freq / timeslot / color code (since as I understand it, like standard Moto trunking, a group can jump not only from freq to freq, but can also jump to a different slot), once a structure has developed, we have much of the data for the new structure already available

Mike

Can you point me in the direction of some well filled out templates that has captured this info (representative entries)

 

[ka3jjz]

Let's start with a look at the TRBO trunks - one simple, one multi-site

Hollywood Casino Toledo Oh. DMR Bandplan

TRBOWEST

In the example above, since we have numerous sites across multiple states, each site gets its own page. Anytime we have a multi site situation, this is the process used. Just click on the 'DMR Bandplan' links to see the data. The 'Comments' column is for any short messages, such as last date heard, etc. If you have a lot of data to put there, a new section can be added to the page and point the user to it via the comment.

And for the 'single site' systems;

Linn County Iowa schools

US Cellular Center Linn County Iowa

As for the issue of color codes per frequency, I've seen it reported both ways - some systems seem to have it all as one color code, others seem to vary it by frequency. I'll leave it to the DMR experts to figure out which is right, and how. See the TRBOWEST article on Sites and Color codes for an example of ones that change. Mike

 

[ka3jjz]

Oh and by the way - you can see we post a 'warning' to alert folks that a standard out of the box scanner can't handle DMR stuff...Mike

 

[Jay911]

Here's a question for the group. How important is it for us to track the color code associated with a repeater for a trunked DMR/TRBO network?

Although I'm not quite the expert others are on DMR systems, it strikes me that the color code is about as important as the connect tone is on a Motorola system, or the NAC on a trunked P25 system.

 

[RayAir]

Although I'm not quite the expert others are on DMR systems, it strikes me that the color code is about as important as the connect tone is on a Motorola system, or the NAC on a trunked P25 system.

At least with p25 there is a rx all NAC (F7E) and a wildcard TG (65535).

Unless you are using DSD or DMR Decode which will display the color code, but isn't dependent on it, programming a DMR radio or any possible future DMR scanner will be dependent on having the proper color code.

Without the proper color code, the radio won't unmute.