Trunking in Venezuela.

Status
Not open for further replies.

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
Hi,

I am trying to program the Motorola Trunking System found on www.radioreference. com under Venezuela for the Metropolitan Police & Fire but have failed so far.

I use a BCD396T scanner and I tried programming all three control channels in the Trunk Frequencies section along with all Talk ID's listed but... so far I cannot hear anything.

Then tried programming only one control channel in the Trunk Frequencies section with all Talk ID's listed. Nothing happened.

Also tried programming all tree control channels and perform an ID Search and then program all Talk ID's resulting from said search... etc. etc. as well as programming all control channels along with voice channels... etc. etc. and all sorts of combinations. ..

According to the manual, this scanner has the capability of "Control Channel Only Scanning" for Motorola systems.

Can anybody please walk me through it? It is very frustrating. Someone from another group suggested I post the question here. Thanks.
 

ka3jjz

Wiki Admin Emeritus
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
24,782
Location
Bowie, Md.
Hi,

I am trying to program the Motorola Trunking System found on www.radioreference. com under Venezuela for the Metropolitan Police & Fire but have failed so far.

I use a BCD396T scanner and I tried programming all three control channels in the Trunk Frequencies section along with all Talk ID's listed but... so far I cannot hear anything.

Then tried programming only one control channel in the Trunk Frequencies section with all Talk ID's listed. Nothing happened.

Also tried programming all tree control channels and perform an ID Search and then program all Talk ID's resulting from said search... etc. etc. as well as programming all control channels along with voice channels... etc. etc. and all sorts of combinations. ..

According to the manual, this scanner has the capability of "Control Channel Only Scanning" for Motorola systems.

Can anybody please walk me through it? It is very frustrating. Someone from another group suggested I post the question here. Thanks.
Hi Carlos - let's verify first that this is the system you are trying to receive...(note that anything in blue, from here on out, is a link)

Caracas Metropolitan System Trunking System, Caracas , Capital District - Scanner Frequencies

Unfortunately this listing is rather bare of the other possible control channels - there are usually at least 1 primary and a couple of alternates that are rotated every day or so. So even if you get everything straight, it's entirely possible that one day it will work fine, the next, you will get nothing.

However, let's start with some analysis. The 396T cannot handle multiple sites under the same system - you would need to program 3 systems, each with one control channel, and duplicate the talkgroups you want to hear for each of them in individual groups.

If what I said is confusing to you, then it's time to read up on how Dynamic Memory Allocation works, and the relationships between systems, sites and groups. It's also very important to understand how system and group quick keys work. Let's start here..

Uniden DMA FAQ - The RadioReference Wiki

Read the first 2 articles. At the bottom of this article are the links to the 'Easier to Read' manuals - download and read the one on the 396.

Normally I would recommend getting software and a premium subscription to download data from the database, but I'm unsure of the regulations and restrictions in Venezuela for money transfers and so forth. Too, there's so little data in the database that I'm not all convinced that it would be worth it, particularly since you will likely need a USB-serial adapter for your PC (most newer PCs don't come with serial ports anymore).

However, if you wish to go that route, you can find out about purchasing a subscription by floating your mouse over About in the upper right under the Scanner Master ad and selecting the topic from the pulldown. As for software, the freeware package FreeScan is highly recommended, and we have the user manual in our wiki here

As for the USB connections, this article will get you started in the right direction.

Take some time and read up. Come back and ask questions - there's lots of folks here that can help, although admittedly, you're the first I've seen from Latin America.

73 (Best Regards) Mike
 
Last edited:

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
Trunking in Venezuela

Dear Mike,

Thanks very much for your clear and thorough reply. Since I am new to this, sometimes I have difficulties in understanding folks that post messages with shortcuts and assuming you are already advanced...

I confirm that the system I want to program is the one you sent me in your e-mail.

I will do my homework in reading everything you suggested. However, I am already interacting with my BCD396T through my computer with BCTools and an USB adapter which functions perfectly well with Windows 7. I find that BCTools is much friendlier than the unit itself so I am already set up.

I appreciate for clarifying about the limitation of handling multiple sites. I will proceed to make three different systems with each one site and replicate all the Talk ID's on each and see what happens for the time being.

Regards,


Carlos
 

ka3jjz

Wiki Admin Emeritus
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
24,782
Location
Bowie, Md.
Carlos, the RR web import made numerous changes last year, and BCTool will not work anymore with that function. In addition, there have been several firmware changes for the 396, and BCTool does not support the new features and functions they provide.

The author was supposedly rewriting this software, but no one has heard from him in months.

In addition, make sure you allocate a system and group key for each site and group you create. I haven't used BCTool in quite a while (I took it off my PC when I did all the firmware changes), but as I recall, the way he shows that a quick key is allocated and active is not intuitive. Someone please correct me here, but I think if the box next to the key is green, it's both allocated and active.

Understanding quick keys and how they function is quite important to making sure you are scanning your system correctly.

73 Mike
 
Last edited:

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
Trunking in Venezuela

Mike,

I have now programmed three different systems with one control channel on each and all talkgroups for each of them but... I hear nothing... I chose 800Mhz Standard (not Splinter) so perhaps I should change it for Splinter???.

Should I programm all voice channels as well since I noticed that the control channels change from time to time and they become voice channels and vice-versa.

How can I identify ALL voice channels for a particular system? A friend of mine provided me with the list of Motorola Trunking Channel Number Conversion (Trunking Channel Number Conversion) and explained that they are divided into 20 channel groups so from 1 - 20 is the first group, from 21 - 40 is the second group, etc. etc and that if I could identify one voice channel, all the remaining should fall within the particular group for that channel and those are the voice channels I should program. I tried this but... it did not work as well...

By the way, I have the latest firmware which is 3.02.02 already installed.

You suggested Freescan as the software. Now, being in Venezuela there is no information about Venezuela other than the one we already know so a subscription would not make sense for me. I will have to input everything manually to make it function. Having said this, does it make sence to change from BCTools to Freescan, even thouugh the first one might not fully support the new firmware and going through the hassle of learning the new program from scratch?

Thanks again for your valuable advise. Carlos.
 

MtnBiker2005

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,466
Location
San Diego County, California
I think we need to take step back everyone.
So getting a premium subscription to RR web import this system. Should be put off for now. Since the RR DB might not have all the info for this systems or others in this country!
First we need to find out if the default settings in the uniden scanners will work.

I had the same problem in Mexico!

Read UPMan post on the 396T group. He responded about this Venezuela help request.
___________________________________________
I just caught that in C you are receiving Talk IDs. So, suspect that that system is not using the standard US band plan. You'll need to identify all the voice channel frequencies, then figure out what the correct band plan is (made easier by using Unitrunker). I have not personally done this, so perhaps someone else can step you through how it is done. You might find more specific help for deriving the band plan at: http://forums.radioreference.com/trunking-control-channel-decoding/

UPMan: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BCD396T/message/32522
UPMan: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BCD396T/message/32521
CarlosP: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BCD396T/message/32519
___________________________________________

Request to CarlosP. If you have more freqs/IControl Channels/nfo for this system. Please post them on this thread. So everyone can look at them.

If it's what I seen before on other system. Like what I think you are seeing....
Your scanner sits on the control channel. Then it tries to go to the default voice channel for half a second and goes back to the Control Channel Fast.
(If you look at the screen. It flashes real quick).
 
Last edited:

ka3jjz

Wiki Admin Emeritus
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
24,782
Location
Bowie, Md.
Unfortunately one cannot just run UniTrunker- you need a discriminator-tapped scanner to do that. It would take some detective work, but yes, if the bandplan isn't the same as in the US, I guess that would be the only way to do it.

73 Mike
 

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
Trunking in Venezuela

... what is Unitrunker???

So far what I have done is programm three different trunking systems as follows. Please note that they are identical except for the Trunking Freq. and the 1st. Group identified as ID's, which were found during ID SEARCH.

System 1:
Trunking Freq (control channel): 866.3375 (Motorola 800Mhz. Type II - Standard)

Groups:
1) ID's: TGID's: 19104, 42912, 18336, 51088, 51872, 51056, 51072 (all these tagid's were found during ID SEARCH);
2) Patrullahe Vehicular: TGID's: 1744
3) Operaciones Especiales: TGID's: 4352
4) Zona 1: TGID's: 6416
5) Zona 2: TGID's: 6480
6) Zona 3: TGID's: 6672
7) Zona 4: TGID's: 6928
8) Zona 5: TGID's: 6864
9) Zona 6: TGID's: 8560
10) Zona 7: TGID's: 8688
11) Zona 8: TGID's: 9040
12) Zona 9: TGID's: 9232
13) Patrullaje Motorizado: TGID's: 9968
14) Comandante: TGID's: 9776

System 2:
Trunking Freq (control channel): 866.9125 (Motorola 800Mhz. Type II - Standard)

Groups:
1) ID's: TGID's: 4432 (all these tagid's were found during ID SEARCH);
2) Patrullahe Vehicular: TGID's: 1744
3) Operaciones Especiales: TGID's: 4352
4) Zona 1: TGID's: 6416
5) Zona 2: TGID's: 6480
6) Zona 3: TGID's: 6672
7) Zona 4: TGID's: 6928
8) Zona 5: TGID's: 6864
9) Zona 6: TGID's: 8560
10) Zona 7: TGID's: 8688
11) Zona 8: TGID's: 9040
12) Zona 9: TGID's: 9232
13) Patrullaje Motorizado: TGID's: 9968
14) Comandante: TGID's: 9776

System 3:
Trunking Freq (control channel): 866.3125 (Motorola 800Mhz. Type II - Standard)

Groups:
1) ID's: TGID's: 55312, 4432, 30736 (all these tagid's were found during ID SEARCH);
2) Patrullahe Vehicular: TGID's: 1744
3) Operaciones Especiales: TGID's: 4352
4) Zona 1: TGID's: 6416
5) Zona 2: TGID's: 6480
6) Zona 3: TGID's: 6672
7) Zona 4: TGID's: 6928
8) Zona 5: TGID's: 6864
9) Zona 6: TGID's: 8560
10) Zona 7: TGID's: 8688
11) Zona 8: TGID's: 9040
12) Zona 9: TGID's: 9232
13) Patrullaje Motorizado: TGID's: 9968
14) Comandante: TGID's: 9776

NOTE: while the scanner was performing an ID SCAN on System 1, it picked up the following: SID: 7419h-0005.

Regards.
 

UPMan

In Memoriam
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
13,296
Location
Arlington, TX
Unfortunately one cannot just run UniTrunker- you need a discriminator-tapped scanner to do that. It would take some detective work, but yes, if the bandplan isn't the same as in the US, I guess that would be the only way to do it.

73 Mike

For some reason when I was replying I though he had an XT...
 

MtnBiker2005

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,466
Location
San Diego County, California
CarlosP,
So are you tracking the system now with your 396T using the Standard settings ? Do we still need to work on that part still ?

"SID: 7419h-0005" (SystemID/Site #) Very good info. Very handy to verify the info in the database or other systems in your country. :)


Do you hear any P25 Digital audio on that system ?

One of the next things to help out RadioReference. Make a list of voice freqs for each site. Once you get your scanner tracking on each site.
So other users in Venezuela can know about them.

UniTrunker is a software that works with the XT scanners(396XT 996XT).
 
Last edited:

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
Trunking in Venezuela

Hi,

Negative. With the configuration I posted in my last post in standard 800Mhz. I am not listening to anything... I would first require to have this scanner working:(

Any idea what I should do? What can I do with SID: 7419h-0005" (SystemID/Site #)? Do I need to program it too into a TalkGroup? Which database can I search? Sorry if my questions sound basic but I am new to this trunking scanning. I used to scann conventional frequencies 20 years ago and I am getting back but... things have changed and have to learn again...

Would be happy to post all information on RR but I first need to figure out how to make it work and once I get it, will post all info for others. Thanks for your patience...

What would be the next step? Is my previous statement about blocks of 20 channels true? Once I have identified a voice frequency, how can I make sure I identify ALL voice channels. Is there a rule I am not aware...

Carlos
 

UPMan

In Memoriam
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
13,296
Location
Arlington, TX
Figuring out how to scan the system requires a few steps, but it really requires you to be able to see the control channel data in UniTrunker in order to be successful. The control channel will send out a channel grant to a channel (like "457"), but the scanner (or two-way radio) must calculate the frequency based on that channel (for example, if the band plan is base 851.025 MHz, step 12.5 kHz, and offset 380, then the voice frequency assigned to channel 457 is 851.9875 --- 851.025 + (457-380) * .0125 = 851.9875).If you know both the channel numbers in the grants and their associated frequencies, you can reverse-engineer a working band plan. Without knowing the channel numbers (knowing only the frequencies), I don't believe there is much chance of finding the correct settings to follow the system.
 
Last edited:

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
Thanks for the explanation but I understand Unitrunker does not support BCD396T which is the scanner I have.... any other suggestions?

Carlos
 

UPMan

In Memoriam
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
13,296
Location
Arlington, TX
Aside from finding one of the system technicians and buying him a cup of coffee (or something harder), I cannot think of another way to get the information.

Note, though, that Unitrunker will work with the BCD396T, but you would need to modify the scanner...I would not suggest it. Instead, you could get a cheap scanner and add the tap.
Discriminator output - The RadioReference Wiki
 

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
OK. Thanks a lot.

I will sell my BCD396T and buy a new BCD396XT and run Unitrunker. Will get back you you shortly for further questions.

Take care,

Carlos.
 

UPMan

In Memoriam
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
13,296
Location
Arlington, TX
Yes, that is even better!

The only other snag you might run into would be if any of the voice channels fall into the area where cell phones are in the US (869-894 MHz). Those frequencies are blocked...
 

UPMan

In Memoriam
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
13,296
Location
Arlington, TX
That software will not in any way enable him to determine the correct band plan for the system he is trying to monitor.
 

CarlosP

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Venezuela
By the way... how do I connect the UniTrunker to the scanner. Is it through the same cable you connect it to the computer (included with the scanner) or I need to buy an extra cable?

Once I have Unitrunker going on, should we change Forums to the one specific for that?

Regards, Carlos.
 

UPMan

In Memoriam
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Apr 19, 2004
Messages
13,296
Location
Arlington, TX
You will use the same cable you use for programming, firmware updates, etc.

There is an option "Control Channel Output" that you will turn on to use UniTrunker (and turn off when you aren't using it).

Once you get it, you should start a new thread over in the other forum for specific questions regarding using UT.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top