Trying for another statewide system

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DaveNF2G

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Your right it shouldn't take to long to set up a unified command post. However, I am talking about everyday communications and small time incidents when police need to talk to fire and EMS and vice versa. Right now we don't even have that.

This is another example of the kind of thinking that impedes NIMS implementation.

The whole idea of ICS is that the exact same procedures be used during every incident, regardless of size, and scaled up when needed to handle larger events.

Agencies should not have separate protocols for "major incidents" and "minor incidents." SOPs should be identical for all incidents.
 

radiofan1

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Your right it shouldn't take to long to set up a unified command post. However, I am talking about everyday communications and small time incidents when police need to talk to fire and EMS and vice versa. Right now we don't even have that.

2 words---

Console Patch.
 

grantnet10

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I think Dilbert got it right... From the April 24th, 2010 strip.

87915.strip.gif
 

SCANdal

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Dave,

I understand the points you've been trying to make regarding the NIMS and the ongoing, almost complete disregard by many of it's most basic elements. But I think you're off the mark in one respect. A command post is a wonderful idea and doesn't take much more then a trunk lid, a pad, and a pen to set up. The problem is the period of time between when the first arriving unit gets to the scene and when everyone of import is gathered at the command post. I'll give you an example to illistrate my point...let's go with shots being fired inside a public school in a suburban locality.

The first arriving unit will typically be a police car. The officer will establish initial incident command and determine if there are any injuries, the last known location of the shooter(s), etc., etc. If injuries are being reported, the local BLS and ALS providers will then be toned out. During the period of time between when the duty crews are paged to when they arrive on scene they, obviously, are unable to be present at any command post established by PD. Now an evacuation route must be established and a local FD's pumper is going to be requested to set up a shield / corridor. Again the same problem applies; there will be a gap in time between the volunteer fire department getting toned out and when the duty chief arrives at any command post. These periods of time - often during the most critical stages of any event - are when some sort of protocol must be established to handle any messages that have to be relayed between law enforcement, EMS, emergency management, and school district, town/village/and/or city officials who may or may not already be on scene. Are you going to do it by radio? Or telephone? Or MDT? If by radio, who is going to do it? Through a dispatcher, who will then call the other dispatcher(s) down the line? Or should the tour commander on scene talk directly to the outside agencies he's requesting to respond?

The decisions made, after a careful study of the pros and cons of each method, will decide what techniques will be (or, I should say, are) used. You are 100% correct in that the scope of the event is irrelevent. A simple collision with a fluid spill on a roadway, resulting in it's full closure, will need the response on an FD. In this simple example, how does police tell fire to come up the wrong way on the highway to get there quicker and aviod sitting in the traffic backup created?

This is what I believe to be the weakest link that needs to be fixed in order to solve our so-called "interoperability" problem: how do we get vital information (such as, sticking with our active shooter example above, which uncleared buildings to stay away from on a campus) into the ears of those who need to hear it during that period in time before everybody getting to a CP. Some previous posters above have suggested the use of the national Call and Tac channels. I'm in support of that...to a point. (A) There are a insufficent number of VHF - low band channels to correspond to all of the VHF - High band, UHF, and 800 MHz equivalents, and (B) all too often none of the bands linked together - either at a console (as suggested above) or at fixed off-site locations. Investments in making this happen on a local level, will eventually lead to a point where, on a national scale, your existing radios will work coast-to-coast.

Once everyone's on location and represented at a joint command post, the radio end of the problem goes away.* The EMT raises his crew chief and provides his updates to him, who'll then relay - face-to-face - all pertainant information to the other leaders at the CP. Same for the firefighter, the school custodian, the deputy sheriff, and whomever else might be involved. MB, in his post above, is right. Too many municipal leaders haven't truly sat down to figure out the answer to the question of what is the quickest way to get info from those who have it to those who need it between the first bang (whether from a gun or between two fenders) and when the command post is up and running.

Thank you for your time,

SCANdal

* This discussion focused on inter-service communications. On scene intra-service (i.e.: PD to County Sheriff to State Police or a VHF FD and a UHF FD) communications struggles will remain throughout the duration of a given event barring any pre-existing common channels being pressed into service or a linking system being activated.
 
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DaveNF2G

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All valid points. The sequence of arrivals will also differ depending on local policies and SOPs. In my area, for example, volunteer fire departments dominate and chiefs practically always arrive first. They are in POVs or, more commonly, fire department SUVs and are already on the road or near their vehicles when calls are dispatched. The apparatus takes longer to move as volunteers have to respond to the fire house.

Also, for the active shooter incident (like most violent or mental health calls), EMS will be sent on initial dispatch but instructed to stage away from the scene. Now we have 2 NIMS sectors that need to be established on many "routine" calls - Command and Staging. With a fire officer already at the scene with the police, there is normally a communication path available to EMS and the first arriving unit can be tasked with the Staging function.

However, as we both understand, it won't always go this way everywhere. I agree with you that the initial response (what NIMS calls the first 20 minutes) will have a necessarily different structure from the more organized operation that can develop. This phase does have communications needs that can be met through either technology or procedure. I think there should be a marked preference for procedural solutions (dispatch protocols in particular) over technology, because both require training but technological toys do not usually come with sufficient training support.

I live in a Home Rule state, so cooperation between services and across geopolitical boundaries at the smallest levels is a special challenge here. Statewide "mandates" are generally treated as suggestions, unless the (now bankrupt) State sends along some cash. However, fire mutual aid was pioneered in this same environment, so I don't think the situation is hopeless.

Serious reform in public safety cooperation will unfortunately be driven most likely by litigation. Once the lawyers get involved, agencies start changing their stripes a bit. It is regrettable that this is what it takes, because lawyers are not cops, firefighters, or medics.
 

FIRECOM31

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I like the system they had in Nebraska while i was in the USAF out there, All Police , Fire , EMS and other agencies had a common statewide freqs. that was used to communicate between each agency .Each vehicle was assigned a statewide ID number which ID them as to what county , what department or agency and the there unit number .Hiway Patrol (State Police were ID by zone # and vehicle) . It was the same thru out the state. In most cases you had 2 radio's in each vehicle, if I remeber correctly . But then again I'm going back prier to Oct. 1976 . So it may have change by now for all I know. I haven't spoke to my friends from the Sheriff Office in many years. You loose track of people when the retire and move out of the area. .
Have a good day and be safe out there. Steven
 

SKYNET156

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I just never understood why there can't be one common frequency like mentioned above,
I live in brooklyn, and anyone familiar with NYPD, there are 3 Citywide channels, it's too crowded, and other agencies move to other bands, Even though NYPD is Primarily UHF it's still over crowded sometimes,

I know from growing up in Southern Ct, there is a frequency is every band for M/A in ct, a STOCS System, State Police Emergency Radio Network (SPERN), and UTAC, VTAC and a statewide Lowband system for Mutual Aid,
and connecticut much like rhode island is a small state.

I just don't understand why in such a small state a statewide system can't put together, and you would think in the state of new york, they would have something in place seeing that they continuously get attacked by terrorist,

But it's crazy when there is something you need you can't get it, is a state able to apply for a bailout loan?
 

radionerd13669

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There are several state wde inter op channels for Police Fire & Ems

NYS i going t have trouble no matter wht they build i you lok at the area that coverage is needed.

AND FYI bailouts many states including NY got a ton of money to keep running
 

radiomanNJ1

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In Nebraska how many people are you talking about ? Real metro areas don't have the luxury of rf capacity!


I like the system they had in Nebraska while i was in the USAF out there, All Police , Fire , EMS and other agencies had a common statewide freqs. that was used to communicate between each agency .Each vehicle was assigned a statewide ID number which ID them as to what county , what department or agency and the there unit number .Hiway Patrol (State Police were ID by zone # and vehicle) . It was the same thru out the state. In most cases you had 2 radio's in each vehicle, if I remeber correctly . But then again I'm going back prier to Oct. 1976 . So it may have change by now for all I know. I haven't spoke to my friends from the Sheriff Office in many years. You loose track of people when the retire and move out of the area. .
Have a good day and be safe out there. Steven
 

FIRECOM31

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As far as remember, it was state wide , there may have been more than one channel in used Statewide . But i don't know or remember . ( That's over 30 years ago.) At that time the same (low band ) freq. was in use on the east end of the state in the Omaha & Lincoln area , Sharpy , Omaha , Lincoln counties and then some.
Some of my friends (Dep. Sheriff and Hiway Patrol ) that were on the job at the time had explain it's use to me . I use to monitor the channel and would here PD & FD looking for ETA to a scene or an ambulance eta . Some time you would hear up dates info on a call or incident or just calling to meet for coffee. Back in those days , I don't think there was a lot of units and most communication was on the department channel . A lot of the department at that time were using low band or vhf with some use of uhf ( city of Omaha PD.) I don't remember it the patrol cars in Omaha were equiped with the low band radio's .or not. So I don't believe or remember if there was alot of interferances between units at that time. I Hope this answer your question . Have a great day.
 

noflipside

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I work for a small agency here upstate and several of our local agencies have implemented a shared services concept. One of our goals is interoperability and we are moving forward with the VTAC, VLAW channels etc. As a firefighter also, it seems that the fire service as adopted the concept of Incident command while the police are slow to move towards it. To me it is a matter of training and accpetance (by law enforcement) to move to ICS.
 

LathamScan

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I've heard a rumor (can't totally confirm it) that all of the SWN 800 MHz. licenses will soon be terminated due to no buildout. A 2nd time extension was asked for but has not been acted on by the FCC.

Kevin
 
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DaveNF2G

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Why are they asking for extensions for a system that will not be built?
 

LathamScan

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Why are they asking for extensions for a system that will not be built?

The same reason why NYS does everything they do - control!

If a local agency wants to add channels to their system, or someone wants to obtain new 800 channels, they would have to go to NYS first to get them to sign off and release the licenses/spectrum, and then go to the FCC for the license. NYS could decide if they don't like what they see (in regards to the local/county/regional agency's system), then they wouldn't agree to terminate their license. Then the local agency is out of luck.

It ain't called "The Empire State" for nothing.

Kevin
 

CqDx

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Well that would be good for local agencies wanting 800 mhz channels, I heard the NYSP has also abandoned their Metro 21 800 mhz system in Manhattan. The MTA PD has been demoing it for about 2 weeks and thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. LOL Yea right!

This is the first time I heard MTA PD experimenting on the METRO21 system, I have yet to hear any new talkgroups popping up, can you elaborate on that?
 

Spec

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The MTA PD has gotten themselves in a jamb over their crummy vhf simplex system. They have been ordered to to either fix it or provide some other safety measures for the officers on patrol. In fact they were ordered to do this or suffer a huge fine for every day they failed to do so. This has caused them to double up from one man cars to two man cars and this has caused overtime. Now given that this causes overtime in some cases. Imagine an officer cannot take a report by himself but must have a partner. So any quick fix will do. It doesn't solve the problem outside the city of NY . That's why they were hoping on the SWEN system. They got themselves in a bad position over the years by their own ineptitude and now they are looking for a fast fix. The 21 system is better than what they now have down there. Is it the answer..NO. But don't be surprised by anything they attempt. They spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for a MCT system that they still can't get to work system-wide. It's a no brainier when it comes to poor management for them.
 

slatescan

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i think they should look to see how OCICS is doing it NY sound look at at this TRS as a way to do things another TRS they should look at the other statewide TRS up and around the USA
 

scosgt

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Metro21 is not that bad. I have picked it up way out east and in New Jersey. It is the closest thing we have to a regional radio system in New York.
 
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