Don_Burke
Member
I would have to dig out the code, but I am pretty sure the channels you are thinking of are the GMRS interstitial channels (shared with FRS), not the FRS channels.
UHF/GMRS Repeater Monitoring
- Thread starter Twister_2
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You might be right, but they're close enough you can talk with FRS users.
Don_Burke
Member
5 MHz is close enough?
Since channels vary by radio its hard to say channel XX is FRS or GMRS. Its ALL going to depend on how the radio is type accepted. COmbo radio's have two type acceptances, one for FRS and one for GMRS.
The shared channels may be licensed as GMRS or FRS with the 7 FRS only channels licensed as FRS.
So one radio could require an GMRS license to operate where another radio would not on the same cahnnel.
This is what I'm referring to:
GMRS, FRS Frequency Table
http://www.ba-marc.org/writeups/gmrs-frs-freq.htm
NO!! Your transmitting on GMRS channels 1-7 with 5 watts.
Don_Burke
Member
That website is wrong.
The GMRS interstitial channels existed before FRS existed and 5 watts was and is permitted there for GMRS users.
When FRS was created, there were seven new channels carved out which were and are the FRS channels.
The existing GMRS interstitial channels are used on a shared basis with FRS.
As a side note, I have found nothing official assigning GMRS channels numbers. I suspect that is also the case with FRS since the channels numbering in the bubblepacks is not consistant.
PHOENIX_SCANNER
Member
500 mw on frs max, no matter the radio.
According to these band plans, as I stated previously, if you have a GMRS license, you are allowed to use FRS channels 1 ~ 7 with 5-watts maximum.
[source]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service
The GMRS-only channels are defined in pairs, with one frequency in the 462 MHz range for simplex and repeater outputs, and another frequency 5 MHz higher for repeater inputs. There are eight channels exclusively for GMRS and seven "interstitial" channels shared with Family Radio Service. GMRS use requires an FCC license, and licensees are permitted to transmit at up to 50 watts on GMRS frequencies (although 1 to 4 watts is more common), as well as have detachable or external antennas.
GMRS licensees are also able to use the first 7 FRS frequencies (the "interstitial" GMRS frequencies), but at the lower 5 watt maximum power output, for a total of 15 channels. FRS channels 8 through 14 are not available for GMRS use; use of these frequencies requires an FRS transceiver.[3]
Recently, hybrid FRS/GMRS consumer radios have been introduced with 22 channels, instead of the 14 channels associated with FRS. On this type of radio, channels 8-14 are strictly license-free FRS channels. Transmitting on all channels above channel 14 requires a license. Transmitting on the shared FRS/GMRS channels 1-7 requires a license, if using more than 1/2 watt. It is the responsibility of the radio user to read and understand all applicable rules and regulations regarding GMRS.
The FCC rules for use of hybrid radios on channels 1-7 require licensing only when operating under the rules that apply to the GMRS. Many hybrid radios have an ERP that is lower than 1/2 watt on channels 1-7, or can be set by the user to operate at low power on these channels. This allows hybrid radios to be used under the license free FRS rules if the ERP is less than 1/2 watt and the unit is certified for FRS operation. Only one maker of hybrid FRS/GMRS radios (Garmin) presently sells radios that will operate on the GMRS repeater channels; the common "22 channel" radios cannot be used with GMRS repeaters.
The requirement for GMRS licensing is ignored by the vast majority of users of these frequencies. Estimates of the number of hybrid FRS/GMRS radios sold to date range from 20 to 50 million units or more. This is compared with approximately 80,000 active GMRS licensees (per the FCC database). Enforcement against individuals is rarely, if ever, attempted. This has led to a lot of consternation among the "non-blister-pack" segment of the GMRS user population, who have significantly more expensive equipment, and have paid $85 for a license. (GMRS and FRS/GMRS radios are often sold in "blister packs" at electronic stores with the required application form for a license included among the warranty cards and safety notices.) Online communities such as GMRS Radio Information and Forums and Popular Wireless Magazines are encouraging GMRS enforcement.
GMRS Band Plan
There are 23 GMRS channels. None of the GMRS channels are assigned for the exclusive use of any system. License applicants and licensees must cooperate in the selection and use of the channels in order to make the most effective use of them and to reduce the possibility of interference.
Channel Allocation
Station TypeFrequency (MHz)mobile station or small base station operating in the simplex mode*462.5625**
462.5875**
462.6125**
462.6375**
4462.6625**
462.6875**
462.7125**
base station, mobile relay station, fixed station or mobile station462.5500
462.5750
462.6000
462.6250
462.6500
462.6750
462.7000
462.7250
mobile station, control station or fixed station in a duplex system467.5500
467.5750
467.6000
467.6250
467.6500
467.6750
467.7000
467.7250
FRS Band Plan
There are 14 FRS channels that can be used on a "take turns" basis. No FRS channel is assigned to any specific individual or organization.
Channel Allocation
ChannelFrequency (MHz)1462.56252462.58753462.61254462.63755462.66256462.68757462.71258467.56259467.587510467.612511467.637512467.662513467.687514467.7125
[source]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service
The GMRS-only channels are defined in pairs, with one frequency in the 462 MHz range for simplex and repeater outputs, and another frequency 5 MHz higher for repeater inputs. There are eight channels exclusively for GMRS and seven "interstitial" channels shared with Family Radio Service. GMRS use requires an FCC license, and licensees are permitted to transmit at up to 50 watts on GMRS frequencies (although 1 to 4 watts is more common), as well as have detachable or external antennas.
GMRS licensees are also able to use the first 7 FRS frequencies (the "interstitial" GMRS frequencies), but at the lower 5 watt maximum power output, for a total of 15 channels. FRS channels 8 through 14 are not available for GMRS use; use of these frequencies requires an FRS transceiver.[3]
Recently, hybrid FRS/GMRS consumer radios have been introduced with 22 channels, instead of the 14 channels associated with FRS. On this type of radio, channels 8-14 are strictly license-free FRS channels. Transmitting on all channels above channel 14 requires a license. Transmitting on the shared FRS/GMRS channels 1-7 requires a license, if using more than 1/2 watt. It is the responsibility of the radio user to read and understand all applicable rules and regulations regarding GMRS.
The FCC rules for use of hybrid radios on channels 1-7 require licensing only when operating under the rules that apply to the GMRS. Many hybrid radios have an ERP that is lower than 1/2 watt on channels 1-7, or can be set by the user to operate at low power on these channels. This allows hybrid radios to be used under the license free FRS rules if the ERP is less than 1/2 watt and the unit is certified for FRS operation. Only one maker of hybrid FRS/GMRS radios (Garmin) presently sells radios that will operate on the GMRS repeater channels; the common "22 channel" radios cannot be used with GMRS repeaters.
The requirement for GMRS licensing is ignored by the vast majority of users of these frequencies. Estimates of the number of hybrid FRS/GMRS radios sold to date range from 20 to 50 million units or more. This is compared with approximately 80,000 active GMRS licensees (per the FCC database). Enforcement against individuals is rarely, if ever, attempted. This has led to a lot of consternation among the "non-blister-pack" segment of the GMRS user population, who have significantly more expensive equipment, and have paid $85 for a license. (GMRS and FRS/GMRS radios are often sold in "blister packs" at electronic stores with the required application form for a license included among the warranty cards and safety notices.) Online communities such as GMRS Radio Information and Forums and Popular Wireless Magazines are encouraging GMRS enforcement.
GMRS Band Plan
There are 23 GMRS channels. None of the GMRS channels are assigned for the exclusive use of any system. License applicants and licensees must cooperate in the selection and use of the channels in order to make the most effective use of them and to reduce the possibility of interference.
Channel Allocation
Station TypeFrequency (MHz)mobile station or small base station operating in the simplex mode*462.5625**
462.5875**
462.6125**
462.6375**
4462.6625**
462.6875**
462.7125**
base station, mobile relay station, fixed station or mobile station462.5500
462.5750
462.6000
462.6250
462.6500
462.6750
462.7000
462.7250
mobile station, control station or fixed station in a duplex system467.5500
467.5750
467.6000
467.6250
467.6500
467.6750
467.7000
467.7250
FRS Band Plan
There are 14 FRS channels that can be used on a "take turns" basis. No FRS channel is assigned to any specific individual or organization.
Channel Allocation
ChannelFrequency (MHz)1462.56252462.58753462.61254462.63755462.66256462.68757462.71258467.56259467.587510467.612511467.637512467.662513467.687514467.7125
PHOENIX_SCANNER
Member
From Popular Wireless:
http://www.popularwireless.com/gmrsbppfaq.html
FRS only frequencies:
467.5625
467.5875
467.6125
467.6375
467.6625
467.6875
467.7125
"If your radio equipment transmits greater than 1/2 watt (500 milliwatts) on the above frequencies, you are operating illegally. The FCC does not permit GMRS operation on these channels; only FRS radios. So if you are not using an FRS radio then you are a pirate.
If your radio is transmitting on these channels with more than 1/2 watt. your radio will likely be transmitting in "wide band" mode as well, which is also not permissible on these frequencies. In either case, it is likely that your operations are causing severe interference to licensed GMRS "repeater" systems. The FCC does not permit GMRS operations on these channels for this reason. However, 1/2-watt narrow band FRS operations are permitted since the FCC believes FRS radios cause less interference."
http://www.popularwireless.com/gmrsbppfaq.html
FRS only frequencies:
467.5625
467.5875
467.6125
467.6375
467.6625
467.6875
467.7125
"If your radio equipment transmits greater than 1/2 watt (500 milliwatts) on the above frequencies, you are operating illegally. The FCC does not permit GMRS operation on these channels; only FRS radios. So if you are not using an FRS radio then you are a pirate.
If your radio is transmitting on these channels with more than 1/2 watt. your radio will likely be transmitting in "wide band" mode as well, which is also not permissible on these frequencies. In either case, it is likely that your operations are causing severe interference to licensed GMRS "repeater" systems. The FCC does not permit GMRS operations on these channels for this reason. However, 1/2-watt narrow band FRS operations are permitted since the FCC believes FRS radios cause less interference."
Your source is a little out of date...from 2005. Can you find an FCC link to back up your claim?
jon_k
Member
Which makes me beg the question why do these blister pack radios NOT inform people those are illegal? Nobody seems to care. Before I got in to scanning or amateur radio, I never knew or realized this.
On long distant trips we would coordinate on 15-22 usually, since our logic was that the higher frequencies would have less use.
Well, to our dismay in the city 15-22 is buzzing with activity, and the people you tried to talk to on that activity would never answer back. (Probably repeater output and the real recipients are too far away to hear 0.5 watt radio.) Even out in the country you would hear crane operators, farm operations, construction crews, loggers, on GMRS.
Now on our trips we use 1-15 and hardly get bothered with others using the frequency. (But perhaps someone should jump on GMRS and start harassing the companies using it for coordination. Not I, as it's harmful interference. I thought GMRS was for personal use only, not unlike FRS. I could be wrong.)
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I've owned several over the years, and most of them did mention the GMRS license requirement, but not until after you totally destroyed the bubble pack and used a magnifying glass to read the fine print...really fine print! :roll:
mjthomas59
Member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2006
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Well I don't have tons of info on all the logistics of GMRS/FRS radios other than to say that on my Midland bubblepacks the power is preset and unadjustable on channels 8-14. All other channels can be adjusted between Low (1 watt) Med(2-3 watts) and High (5 watts).
In order to avoid any confusion my owners manual says that the channel frequencies are as follows:
#8: 467.5625
#9: 467.5875
#10: 467.6125
#11: 467.6375
#12: 467.6625
#13: 467.6875
#14: 467.7125
So based on that there is clearly a legal way to transmit 5 watts on all other channels, however i'm sure there would be a license required.
I don't know if that helps, or just makes everyone else reading this thread go crazy. Have fun! And i'm 1 of the millions using GMRS w/o a license, anyone think the FCC will come hunt me down? Of course I don't interfere with repeaters or anything like that, atleast not that I know of.
In order to avoid any confusion my owners manual says that the channel frequencies are as follows:
#8: 467.5625
#9: 467.5875
#10: 467.6125
#11: 467.6375
#12: 467.6625
#13: 467.6875
#14: 467.7125
So based on that there is clearly a legal way to transmit 5 watts on all other channels, however i'm sure there would be a license required.
I don't know if that helps, or just makes everyone else reading this thread go crazy. Have fun! And i'm 1 of the millions using GMRS w/o a license, anyone think the FCC will come hunt me down? Of course I don't interfere with repeaters or anything like that, atleast not that I know of.
FRS/GMRS is a total quagmire! For the matter the FCC is a total cluster! The rules should be very clear and concise.
The FCC says a new user (not grandfathered in) can not use GMRS for any business. But if all your employee's get their own individual GMRS license, it is perfectly legal. There are all kinds of gray areas, contradictions, and loop-holes! I could count on one hand how many instances I've heard about where the FCC enforces anything on FRS/GMRS.
I think that department is just a cash cow that collects the license fees, but they don't activity enforce the rules. I'm not suggesting you operate on GMRS without a license (I have mine), or break the rules. But if you did, other than interference with a repeater, or other licensed user, I don't think they're going to come after you. It would be next to impossible for them to determine if you're using 1/2 watt, or 5-watts, unless they were in the immediate area. Then there's the matter of finding you, especially if you're on the move. Can you imagine finding the rule breakers at Disney World!
The FCC says a new user (not grandfathered in) can not use GMRS for any business. But if all your employee's get their own individual GMRS license, it is perfectly legal. There are all kinds of gray areas, contradictions, and loop-holes! I could count on one hand how many instances I've heard about where the FCC enforces anything on FRS/GMRS.
I think that department is just a cash cow that collects the license fees, but they don't activity enforce the rules. I'm not suggesting you operate on GMRS without a license (I have mine), or break the rules. But if you did, other than interference with a repeater, or other licensed user, I don't think they're going to come after you. It would be next to impossible for them to determine if you're using 1/2 watt, or 5-watts, unless they were in the immediate area. Then there's the matter of finding you, especially if you're on the move. Can you imagine finding the rule breakers at Disney World!
Don_Burke
Member
This should get you to the technical specifications:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr95.633.htm
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr95.633.htm
Don_Burke
Member
I just went to the CFR and found that the FRS channels are numbered and the GMRS channels are not.jon_k said:
I either missed it or they added the numbers in the years since I last looked.
Hanging out on FRS channels 8-14 would be what I would try first as they are FRS only.
It still doesn't address using a licensed GMRS radio on FRS frequencies. I can't find any FCC documents that say you can, or can not.
Don_Burke
Member
The GMRS radios are operating on GMRS frequencies that are shared with FRS. Each service is operating within its own rules.GreatLakes said:
It is a fine point, but it makes all the difference in this case.
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr95.621.htm
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr95.627.htm
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/octqtr/47cfr95.29.htm
Not to be picky but NO your not using FRS channels. Your using GMRS channels with 5watts.
FRS is shaing GMRS frequencies, not the other way around.
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