Unauthorized users on GMRS repeaters

[ecps92]

Sadly with his TUDE, he enjoyed being in my IGNORE/Banned list long long after his first few posts. I love the BootLegger attitude, which will invite a visit from either the Repeater owner or the FCC for not being a courteous GMRS user.

We now return us to the Real world, where decent users ASK for permission to use someone elses property

Being new to the group here just because you interpret the rules the way you want, it is only common courtesy to have an agreement with the repeater owner. Would you let someone borrow your car without your permission? Sure the person may have a drivers license, but did you give that person the OK to use your car?

Same thing applies to using a radio repeater that belongs to another person. Ask first and stay on the good side of the owner.

 

[n1das]

This thread reminds me of my dealing with a long time pest on GMRS/FRS in Nashua NH area for more than 15 years. This pest was well known in the GMRS and ham community and also on CB channel 19. The FCC has also dealt with him in the past. A friend of mine and I were some of his regular targets on GMRS because we did a fairly good job of ignoring him. He simply was looking for attention and got p!$$ed at us for simply continuing to use GMRS like he wasn't there. We are both GMRS licensed and he was not. He wanted to access my local GMRS repeater but I easily nipped that one in the bud. His only repeater capable radio on GMRS was an old POS Maxon base radio and only had CTCSS/PL capability. He had absolutely no clue about DCS/DPL and didn't have the capability. We were using DCS/DPL on simplex and on my repeater. He ranted and raved about not being able to use the repeater and it drove him nuts. I monitored him on the input and heard him try multiple PL tones to try to key the repeater but to no avail. He eventually gave trying to get into the repeater.

DPL = Motorola Digital Private Line = "Definitely Prevents Losers

The problem in the Nashua NH area eventually solved itself due to him passing away a couple of years ago. He definitely provided lots of listening entertainment over the years.


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[ecps92]

Ahhh , Yes, and it wasn't just CB and GMRS where he played, many an Amateur Repeater was the brunt of his drivel

This thread reminds me of my dealing with a long time pest on GMRS/FRS in Nashua NH area for more than 15 years. This pest was well known in the GMRS and ham community and also on CB channel 19. The FCC has also dealt with him in the past. A friend of mine and I were some of his regular targets on GMRS because we did a fairly good job of ignoring him. He simply was looking for attention and got p!$$ed at us for simply continuing to use GMRS like he wasn't there. We are both GMRS licensed and he was not. He wanted to access my local GMRS repeater but I easily nipped that one in the bud. His only repeater capable radio on GMRS was an old POS Maxon base radio and only had CTCSS/PL capability. He had absolutely no clue about DCS/DPL and didn't have the capability. We were using DCS/DPL on simplex and on my repeater. He ranted and raved about not being able to use the repeater and it drove him nuts. I monitored him on the input and heard him try multiple PL tones to try to key the repeater but to no avail. He eventually gave trying to get into the repeater.

DPL = Motorola Digital Private Line = "Definitely Prevents Losers

The problem in the Nashua NH area eventually solved itself due to him passing away a couple of years ago. He definitely provided lots of listening entertainment over the years.


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[n1das]

Ahhh , Yes, and it wasn't just CB and GMRS where he played, many an Amateur Repeater was the brunt of his drivel

Yep. I heard all that too. I have many hours of recordings of his tirades on the air. During the last few months before he became a Silent Key, I heard him pi$$ing and moaning about a DMR-MARC repeater 10kHz away from the 2m frequency he claimed to "own". Hearing the raw DMR data drove him nuts.

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[Skypilot007]

I'm part owner of a GMRS repeater. Our group has given the boot to more than a few folks with the same opinions as dawsonpadoms from our repeater. We welcome just about anyone that has a license to use the repeater but once in a while someone comes along that just doesn't understand things. Lots of chances are given to these folks but some just don't get it. A group decision is made and the individual is banned from the repeater. Then the interference usually starts but they get tired of it and move along eventually, especially when there identity is known.

There is no sense trying to argue with dawsonpadams. He is always right, has to get the last word in, knows it all, etc. There is one in every crowd. Don't waist your time with him. Move on and forget about him.

 

[AK9R]

The U.S. amateur radio rules contain a provision in 97.205(e) which reads: "Limiting the use of a repeater to only certain user stations is permissible." Do the GMRS rules contain a similar provision? Unless the GMRS rules specifically address who can or cannot use a repeater, there may be some merit to dawsonpadams' arguments.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The U.S. amateur radio rules contain a provision in 97.205(e) which reads: "Limiting the use of a repeater to only certain user stations is permissible." Do the GMRS rules contain a similar provision? Unless the GMRS rules specifically address who can or cannot use a repeater, there may be some merit to dawsonpadams' arguments.

The rules on cooperative use of repeaters require a formal process recorded between licensees.



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[AA4TX]

§95.103 Licensee duties.

(b) The licensee may limit the use of repeater to only certain user stations.

 

[AK9R]

§95.103 Licensee duties.

(b) The licensee may limit the use of repeater to only certain user stations.

What's the date on that copy of the rules?

The electronic copy on the GPO web site does not contain a paragraph (b).

Here's what I find:

§ 95.103 Licensee duties.
The licensee is responsible for the proper operation of the GMRS system at all times. The licensee is also responsible for the appointment of a station operator.
[63 FR 68975, Dec. 14, 1998]
EDITORIAL NOTE: At 64 FR 53242, Oct. 1, 1999, §95.103 was amended by revising paragraphs (a) and (b), effective Nov. 30, 1999. However, §95.103, as revised at 63 FR 68975, Dec. 14, 1998, effective Feb. 12, 1999, does not contain paragraphs (a) and (b), and the revisions could not be made.
For the convenience of the user, the revised text is set forth as follows:
§ 95.103 Licensee duties.
(a) The licensee is responsible for the proper operation of the GMRS system at all times. The licensee is also responsible for the appointment of a station operator.
(b) The licensee may limit the use of repeater to only certain user stations.

It looks to me like the paragraph (b) text is something that the FCC wanted to insert into the rules, but it hasn't officially happened hence the "editorial note".

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

§95.103 Licensee duties.

(b) The licensee may limit the use of repeater to only certain user stations.

Thanks!

It should be mentioned, that in the shadow of a recent lawsuit filed by a disgruntled amateur DMR user, that any agreements or policies be put in writing and if someone decides to step over the line, mail a certified warning letter. In the aforementioned case, there were no formal rules and the user was banned from the system for alleged business use. The user filed in state court not federal so FCC rules would be moot. This caused great financial difficulty for several repeater operators.

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[mmckenna]

As well as:

§95.7 Channel sharing.
...
(b) Licensees of GMRS systems suffering or causing harmful interference are expected to cooperate and resolve this problem by mutually satisfactory arrangements

Also known as "Don't be a jerk".

---------------------------------------------

§95.33 Cooperative use of radio stations in the GMRS.
...
(4) All sharing arrangements must be conducted in accordance with a written agreement to be kept as part of the station records.

A repeater owner, letting you use (or not use) their repeater can require written permission. Using a repeater without permission would violate this rule and also fall under the heading of "Don't be a jerk".

----------------------------------------------

§95.7 Channel sharing.
(a).....All station operators and GMRS system licensees must cooperate in the selection and use of channels to reduce interference and to make the most effective use of the facilities

Share the limited resources. Again, "Don't be a jerk".


Can you transmit on the same frequencies used by someone else's repeater? Sure, that's totally legal.
Can you transmit through someone else's repeater by purposely programming your radio to use the same tones and frequencies knowing you will be using their repeater without permission (as in 95.33)? No, see rules quoted above.
Should you cooperate and work with other licensed users to make the most out of the limited resources? Absolutely.

As with most things in life, there is a lot of leeway we have been given by rules, laws, conventions, common decency. Important thing is: "Don't be a jerk".

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

What's the date on that copy of the rules?

The electronic copy on the GPO web site does not contain a paragraph (b).

Here's what I find:


It looks to me like the paragraph (b) text is something that the FCC wanted to insert into the rules, but it hasn't officially happened hence the "editorial note".

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/search/pa...n+§+95.103&collapse=true&fromBrowse=true

What are you guys talking about? The GPO site above has the 2015 revision of rule 95.103 with paragraphs a and b as originally posted.

Let's not confuse the issue. 95.103 (b) exists and provides for the repeater operator to limit who uses the repeater.

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[AA4TX]

The (b) paragraph is in the published version of the following files, which were the latest that I obtained:

CFR-2010-title47-vol5-part95.pdf
Downloaded from the FCC in 2011

CFR-2011-title47-vol5-part95.pdf
Downloaded from the FCC in 2012

CFR-2012-title47-vol5-part95.pdf
Downloaded from the FCC in 2013

I will look in later published hard copies if I can find them.

 

[AA4TX]

There you go! I don't have to look! Thank you.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/search/pa...n+§+95.103&collapse=true&fromBrowse=true

What are you guys talking about? The GPO site above has the 2015 revision of rule 95.103 with paragraphs a and b as originally posted.

Let's not confuse the issue. 95.103 (b) exists and provides for the repeater operator to limit who uses the repeater.

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[K4DPA]

Your license lets you TX on frequencies. That doesn't give you the right to use a private repeater. Unauthorized use of someones repeater falls under malicious interference and you can lose your license for that. Go read part 95 again.

I like the car analog... Your license lets you drive on the road. Driving someone else's car without their permission is not part of having a driver's license. Frequencies are roads, repeaters are someone's property.

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No sir, that's incorrect. That is not considered malicious interference. If you're driving down the road you can not block the road causing other people to use the road that have just as much right as you to use the road. It's not fair and if people want total control of the frequencies their repeaters use then don't use services like GMRS. Get a private business frequency from the FCC. But you guys are set in your ways and it's like talking to the wall at this point.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[AA4TX]

This is from:
MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER ON RECONSIDERATION

Adopted: June 10, 1999
Released: June 28, 1999

…

69. We are concerned, however, that the GMRS community has the mistaken impression that repeater operators must allow unlimited use of their facilities by third parties. Accordingly, we will include in our rules a statement that limiting the use of a repeater to certain user stations is permissible. Repeater owners, as part of management of their GMRS systems, are free to decide what means of control, if any, are necessary.

https://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/1999/fcc99139.txt

 

[insanity213]

Self entitled people like you are the reason I gave up on GMRS. The rules are plain English but you believe they don't apply to you. Good luck out there...You're going to need it.

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[ka8zay]

Your license lets you TX on frequencies. That doesn't give you the right to use a private repeater. Unauthorized use of someones repeater falls under malicious interference and you can lose your license for that. Go read part 95 again.

I like the car analog... Your license lets you drive on the road. Driving someone else's car without their permission is not part of having a driver's license. Frequencies are roads, repeaters are someone's property.

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Actually because frequencies are not assign to anyone, leaving the repeater running on a pair of frequencies I want to use is causing interference to me. You can not just assume control of a pair of frequencies on GMRS just because you put a repeater there. Now if you are actively using it and I come in and disrupt your communications then that is me causing interference.


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[K4DPA]

Actually because frequencies are not assign to anyone, leaving the repeater running on a pair of frequencies I want to use is causing interference to me. You can not just assume control of a pair of frequencies on GMRS just because you put a repeater there. Now if you are actively using it and I come in and disrupt your communications then that is me causing interference.


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Thank you!


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Actually because frequencies are not assign to anyone, leaving the repeater running on a pair of frequencies I want to use is causing interference to me. You can not just assume control of a pair of frequencies on GMRS just because you put a repeater there. Now if you are actively using it and I come in and disrupt your communications then that is me causing interference.


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Has this happened to you recently?