Unauthorized users on GMRS repeaters

[K4DPA]

I'm not sure how much unauthorized use was occurring via DMR. There has been at least one or two guys that go from one GMRS repeater to another in the area and don't bother with permission from the owners or trustees. They repeater owners may have tried to run both concurrently and were having trouble doing that. That's just a guess though.

You don't need permission from the person that owns the repeater. If your licensed then technically that's all you need to use GMRS frequencies. No one can claim a pair of GMRS frequencies as their own. Jamming and malicious interference of course is different.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

You don't need permission from the person that owns the repeater. If your licensed then technically that's all you need to use GMRS frequencies. No one can claim a pair of GMRS frequencies as their own. Jamming and malicious interference of course is different.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

If you intend to USE someone's repeater, unless they have listed it as public access on a webpage or other announcement, you DO need their permission to use it. The repeater is private property. Even if the travel code is the default. True you can install your own repeater on same channel and as long as you don't interfere intentionally using a reserve tone, or excessively long repeater drop out delay to dissuade others, that is fine.

What we do have are multitudes of unlicensed FRS/GMRS combos operating on the repeater output frequencies and some high power unlicensed operators operating on FRS channels with wide band equipment.

 

[K4DPA]

If you intend to USE someone's repeater, unless they have listed it as public access on a webpage or other announcement, you DO need their permission to use it. The repeater is private property. Even if the travel code is the default. True you can install your own repeater on same channel and as long as you don't interfere intentionally using a reserve tone, or excessively long repeater drop out delay to dissuade others, that is fine.



What we do have are multitudes of unlicensed FRS/GMRS combos operating on the repeater output frequencies and some high power unlicensed operators operating on FRS channels with wide band equipment.

No you don't need permission from the repeater owner to use GMRS frequencies regardless of the repeater being private property. You're not violating private property laws by using a repeater that's on GMRS frequencies. If you want to control who can use your repeater you need a private business (IG) license. GMRS is a shared bases only except those that were grandfathered in years ago.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[insanity213]

Use of frequency vs use of someones property are completely different. You don't have to let people use your repeater if you don't want to.

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[K4DPA]

Use of frequency vs use of someones property are completely different. You don't have to let people use your repeater if you don't want to.

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You're 100 % correct. That is why you turn the repeater off, reprogram it with other GMRS frequencies, or use a private business (IG) licensed from the FCC. You can't tell another GMRS licensee that they can't use 462.675 / 467.675 just because your repeater is using it. They have just as much right to us it as you do. If you program your repeater with GMRS frequencies you are operating on public frequencies. Not private ones. The only way someone would violate your private property is if they physically touch it or tried to steal it. Not using it over the air.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

No you don't need permission from the repeater owner to use GMRS frequencies regardless of the repeater being private property. You're not violating private property laws by using a repeater that's on GMRS frequencies. If you want to control who can use your repeater you need a private business (IG) license. GMRS is a shared bases only except those that were grandfathered in years ago.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

I will be blunt as well: I suggest you read the rules about cooperative use of repeaters.
If you think by using it you can force someone else to change frequencies or codes you are causing malicious interference.
And yes, I can block anyone from using my repeater. We will nip that in the bud right now.

 

[K4DPA]

I will be blunt as well: I suggest you read the rules about cooperative use of repeaters. And yes, I can block anyone from using my repeater. We will nip that in the bud right now.

Ok sir. I suggest you do the same. GMRS is shared based. Anyone is welcome to use my repeaters because that's how the radio service was and is intended to be. Good luck.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[insanity213]

You're 100 % correct. That is why you turn the repeater off, reprogram it with other GMRS frequencies, or use a private business (IG) licensed from the FCC. You can't tell another GMRS licensee that they can't use 462.675 / 467.675 just because your repeater is using it. They have just as much right to us it as you do. If you program your repeater with GMRS frequencies you are operating on public frequencies. Not private ones. The only way someone would violate your private property is if they physically touch it or tried to steal it. Not using it over the air.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

Use the frequencies all you like. If you don't have permission to use a private repeater you aren't allowed to access it. Your license lets you use the frequency, not other people's property.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Ok sir. I suggest you do the same. GMRS is shared based. Anyone is welcome to use my repeaters because that's how the radio service was and is intended to be. Good luck.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

Good day sir, you are a whole bag of wrong.

 

[Rred]

This was in the courts last year. Anyone can "use" a repeater UNLESS the repeater owner says otherwise. If the repeater owner allows or tolerates open use, that's allowing it. If they say "Hey, you can't use my repeater any more" then you can't, and the courts have said that's the law.

Feel free to debate it or take it higher--but that's old news now and the guys who got banned didn't appeal it.

 

[jonwienke]

Link? Google isn't cooperating tonight.

 

[n1das]

DMR digital on GMRS would be a big help here if digital modulation were made legal by the FCC.

Access to a DMR repeater can be filtered by the repeater to allow only DMR radios with certain radio IDs to access the repeater, even if the color code and time slot information are correct. It would be nice if a DMR repeater could also filter access based on a DMR radio's hardware electronic serial number (ESN) in addition to the programmed radio ID. Think of it sort of like MAC address filtering.

 

[K4DPA]

This was in the courts last year. Anyone can "use" a repeater UNLESS the repeater owner says otherwise. If the repeater owner allows or tolerates open use, that's allowing it. If they say "Hey, you can't use my repeater any more" then you can't, and the courts have said that's the law.



Feel free to debate it or take it higher--but that's old news now and the guys who got banned didn't appeal it.

The FCC regulations for part 95 are very clear. GMRS is shared bases only. If it's shared bases then how can you tell me that I can't use a GMRS frequency just because you programed it into your repeater? You may own the actual repeater but you do NOT own the GMRS frequency you chose for it to use. The courts are wrong and if needed we can take it were they want to take it. No problem.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[K4DPA]

This was in the courts last year. Anyone can "use" a repeater UNLESS the repeater owner says otherwise. If the repeater owner allows or tolerates open use, that's allowing it. If they say "Hey, you can't use my repeater any more" then you can't, and the courts have said that's the law.



Feel free to debate it or take it higher--but that's old news now and the guys who got banned didn't appeal it.

(a) Channels or channel pairs (one 462 MHz frequency listed in §95.29(a) of this part and one 467 MHz frequency listed in §95.29(b) of this part) are available to GMRS systems only on a shared basis and will not be assigned for the exclusive use of any licensee.



-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[chief21]

You're barking up the wrong tree here. There is much precedent where the FCC has upheld the fact that a repeater is private property and use by others can be withheld. I just recently saw a presentation by the chief FCC enforcement attorney and she reiterated this point.

As others have pointed out, the frequencies are public; use of someone else's property is not a right. This is true for amateur radio and other shared public frequencies. If you think otherwise, you will lose.

John AC4JK

 

[jim202]

You don't need permission from the person that owns the repeater. If your licensed then technically that's all you need to use GMRS frequencies. No one can claim a pair of GMRS frequencies as their own. Jamming and malicious interference of course is different.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

Being new to the group here just because you interpret the rules the way you want, it is only common courtesy to have an agreement with the repeater owner. Would you let someone borrow your car without your permission? Sure the person may have a drivers license, but did you give that person the OK to use your car?

Same thing applies to using a radio repeater that belongs to another person. Ask first and stay on the good side of the owner.

 

[RayAir]

DMR digital on GMRS would be a big help here if digital modulation were made legal by the FCC.

Access to a DMR repeater can be filtered by the repeater to allow only DMR radios with certain radio IDs to access the repeater, even if the color code and time slot information are correct. It would be nice if a DMR repeater could also filter access based on a DMR radio's hardware electronic serial number (ESN) in addition to the programmed radio ID. Think of it sort of like MAC address filtering.

True, but restricting RID's to a specific range, etc isn't going to stop anyone. If they allowed DMR then you would need to use MotoTRBO RAS to prevent unauthorized radios without the proper Ras key from using the repeater.

With analog there isn't much you can do.

 

[K4DPA]

You're barking up the wrong tree here. There is much precedent where the FCC has upheld the fact that a repeater is private property and use by others can be withheld. I just recently saw a presentation by the chief FCC enforcement attorney and she reiterated this point.

As others have pointed out, the frequencies are public; use of someone else's property is not a right. This is true for amateur radio and other shared public frequencies. If you think otherwise, you will lose.

John AC4JK

I'm not barking up the wrong tree. If I'm licensed to use GMRS frequencies I can use any frequency I wish as along as I am not near the Canadian border and that I share them with other licensees. You can control how your repeater is used physically because it's your property. But you can not tell me I can not use a certain GMRS frequency just because you decided to program it in your repeater. You took the risk of having your repeater keyed up by anyone with a GMRS license when you programed it with GMRS frequencies which are public. Any judge or lawyer in their right mind would tell you or any other GMRS licensee that if you don't want your repeater to be used then you need a private LMR IG class license. That way you can control the frequency your repeater uses. I'm done with this endless nonsense because with a lot of you it does no good. A lot of you think you own the air way when you don't. When someone like me who isn't afraid to stand up for what's right, all of you come out of the woodworks to shut me up so everyone else won't do the same. Sorry it's not gonna work.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[K4DPA]

Being new to the group here just because you interpret the rules the way you want, it is only common courtesy to have an agreement with the repeater owner. Would you let someone borrow your car without your permission? Sure the person may have a drivers license, but did you give that person the OK to use your car?



Same thing applies to using a radio repeater that belongs to another person. Ask first and stay on the good side of the owner.

On a moral stand point your right. But according to the FCC regulations it's not. I always ask if I can use someone's GMRS repeater. I just emailed a guy last week about requesting access to his repeater. The problem that I and a lot of others have is when people act like they own the GMRS frequencies their repeaters use. That's the issue. But using someone's car isn't the same as using someone's repeater over the air. You can reprogram your repeater at any time.


-Dawson Adams
GMRS: WQPN413
Warning: I have a strong tendency to be bluntly honest.

 

[insanity213]

Your license lets you TX on frequencies. That doesn't give you the right to use a private repeater. Unauthorized use of someones repeater falls under malicious interference and you can lose your license for that. Go read part 95 again.

I like the car analog... Your license lets you drive on the road. Driving someone else's car without their permission is not part of having a driver's license. Frequencies are roads, repeaters are someone's property.

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