Uniden Bcd436hp encryption muted?

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phantomcrow

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I see the encrypted talkgroups & Unit IDs active on several of the local systems here. While the audio is not heard, ProScan logs the activity.
What about a Uniden BCD436HP with the DMR upgrade does it auto skip over a encrypted Mototrbo transmission?
 

phantomcrow

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Yes Mine does on all listed below just like I want it to. I want to hear people talking and not hear ENCRYPTION I cannot understand.
325P2
996P2
436HP
536HP
SDS100
SDS200
No good then, you will miss any TG that aren't programmed in im guessing. Here in PA this happens with our new State P25. I also want to be alerted when a specific unit like vice etc is active close by. I suppose it can also be used for other purposes. Does your scanners log all these encrypted transmission? My old one did with that pro scan software
 

hiegtx

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No good then, you will miss any TG that aren't programmed in im guessing. Here in PA this happens with our new State P25. I also want to be alerted when a specific unit like vice etc is active close by. I suppose it can also be used for other purposes. Does your scanners log all these encrypted transmission? My old one did with that pro scan software
Even though the scanner wil not receive encrypted transmissions, ProScan will still log the talkgroups used, and the unit IDs.
 

kruser

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Even though the scanner wil not receive encrypted transmissions, ProScan will still log the talkgroups used, and the unit IDs.
I've been using ProScan since darn near it's first day and I can't say any of my instances have ever logged an encrypted hit ever when monitoring any modern Uniden P25 capable model Uniden sold.

Am I missing a setting somewhere? I must use Pro96com to log encrypted traffic and associated UIDs.
I do sometimes see encrypted TGs flash on the screen briefly while scanning or searching a P25 system but it just moves on if it's encrypted and ProScan never ever logs that. It never has!

Are you possibly only seeing ProScan log encrypted activity if you are Holding on a TG that's using encryption?
 

sallen07

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I do sometimes see encrypted TGs flash on the screen briefly while scanning or searching a P25 system but it just moves on if it's encrypted and ProScan never ever logs that. It never has!

Are you possibly only seeing ProScan log encrypted activity if you are Holding on a TG that's using encryption?

I see what hiegtx sees. Scanner stops briefly on encrypted group, and Proscan logs the hit and the radio IDs.

What model(s) of scanner are you using?
 

hiegtx

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I've been using ProScan since darn near it's first day and I can't say any of my instances have ever logged an encrypted hit ever when monitoring any modern Uniden P25 capable model Uniden sold.

Am I missing a setting somewhere? I must use Pro96com to log encrypted traffic and associated UIDs.
I do sometimes see encrypted TGs flash on the screen briefly while scanning or searching a P25 system but it just moves on if it's encrypted and ProScan never ever logs that. It never has!

Are you possibly only seeing ProScan log encrypted activity if you are Holding on a TG that's using encryption?
No, I'm not holding on any specific TGID. However, this is a relatively new system, involving several local suburbs. The two largest went to full encryption on most public safety TGIDs, so many of their new talkgroups are not identified.

I am running the system using ID Search, and I am getting log entries that I know are encrypted. I can verify that by running Discovery sessions.
88041
For the folders labeled with an E. there are no recordings, since they are encrypted. Folders tagged with a D will have recordings. Some of those may really be encrypted conversations that, for whatever reason, the scanner did not recognize the encryption. But any "clear" transmissions recorded will be there to review.

Note that, even when I'm not running a Discovery session, I still see activity appearing from the encrypted TGIDs. Perhaps the difference is that I am running ID Search, instead of only scanning what was programmed.

This is the system I'm referring to:

Garland & Mesquite are both fairly large suburbs; Mesquite went full encrypted when they moved from their old analog system. Garland, initially, encrypted only PD after transition from their old analog system, but later added Fire & EMS TGIDs. You see a number of Garland IDs identified since the TGID on the new Phase II system is their old Moto Type II ID divided by 16. Sachse & Rowlett also moved from analog to the P25 system, with Rowlett "dark" from the beginning. However, while they are not in the database, Rowlett's new TGIDs follow the "divide by 16" to convert to Phase II usage. The same applies to Sachse, but for now, they are not encoded.

I have not been able to determine a conversion pattern that works for Mesquite, so any listings for them is based on "clear" transmissions.
 

kruser

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I see what hiegtx sees. Scanner stops briefly on encrypted group, and Proscan logs the hit and the radio IDs.

What model(s) of scanner are you using?
For this message, a 536HP. I also use everything from the old 996T thru the SDS series with about every model between and still don't see any encrypted logs in ProScan. Never have seen even one log entry from any encrypted P25 TG from any of my Uniden models!

I just tuned the local county system (Slater) which is mostly encrypted. I see the scanner display pause when an encrypted TG is detected but even the scanner display never shows the UID or RID, just the TG and name I'd given it. This happens in ID Search or ID Scan.
TGs that I don't have entered just display the TG number in ID Search but nothing has ever been logged by ProScan. I think this is key, if the radio never ever shows a UID, it will never be logged by ProScan if it's an encrypted TG. At least that's what I see when I watch them both.
Very short hits that are not encrypted will be logged by ProScan even if the UID was not detected, it's only the enc TGs that are never logged.
I have 12 instances of ProScan I can run at once on two different machines. Each one monitors a different scanner with about half of those scanners being P25 models. Again, none of them have ever logged anything when an encrypted TG is encountered regardless if it's in ID Scan or Search mode with no TGs locked out or avoided. I don't get it!

I just tried the same thing but with another instance of ProScan logging a 996XT and zero logs created when encrypted talkgroups are seen for a brief second on that radio as well. I also checked and I don't have ProScan set to remove logs under 2 seconds. I have it set to log everything.
They all do the same thing on our VHF statewide system as well. Only in the clear TG traffic is logged.

The systems I monitor here are all still using Phase I only at this time. I see hiegtx is watching a Phase II system. Maybe that's the difference.
I'd think the systems here and at your location are both using AES encryption so that should not be the reason I don't see any logs in ProScan.

I've read several other threads stating the same and have always thought it odd that in this area, ProScan never logs anything when a Uniden sees an encrypted TG. I've never really looked into why mine never logs anything until now.
It's odd for sure and I'd like to figure out why but I guess no big deal. I've always been confident anything logged by ProScan is in fact an in the clear TG. Like I mentioned earlier, I do monitor the CC of the area systems with Pro96com and it does fantastic at logging encrypted TGs and UIDs. I guess that's why I never really bothered to look into why none of my instances of ProScan log any encrypted activity at all.

I've also never used any of the Discovery modes like hiegtx shows so I don't have any discovery logs like his screenshot shows. I don't think that would make a difference though as he see encrypted log entries in ProScan when doing normal ID Scan and Searches.

I'm sure there's a reason why non of my instances of ProScan log any encrypted activity at all but I sure can't figure it out!

Thanks for the replies hiegtx and sallen07.
 

n1chu

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Since that latest update of the FCC’s rules and regulations, encrypted transmissions are supposed to be ignored by any scanner manufactured after a certain date. (My guess is the FCC is affording some wiggle room for those manufacturers that produce scanners which have proven to be problematic In achieving this. But I’m sure they are also told they should be striving to bing into compliance their new scanners and be able to show a conserted effort towards that goal.) In any case, the new Uniden’s also don’t ignore all types of encryption, just the most commonly used types of encryption. And I’ve heard encrypted transmissions on those systems that Uniden has been able to identify and eliminate. But it’s a two process step... Since the scanner must first be able to identify a signal as encrypted, and then continue scanning, my guess I sometimes it fails to identify. But only sporadically.
Certain aftermarket programming software may allow for logging as has been stated, but I’d be leery of allowing those programs to update, out of fear the updates will remove certain abilities. (I can’t speak intelligently to those programs as I only use Sentinel and Butel software.) My take on encryption is it has its place were sensitive or proprietary info needs to be transmitted but this is NOT the forum for that type of discussion. I only state it here to give all an understanding of my mindset as it relates to the original question. Please do not further this aspect of my post here.
 

phask

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As Kruser said " Phase I only at this time. I see hiegtx is watching a Phase II system. Maybe that's the difference".

THIS - Uniden handles phase2 differently than phase1. I do not remember exactly why. I know Paul ( Upman) explained it, but don't remember. I think there is a data bit that may show in PH1 that is not present in PH2, but just a guess.

I only have PH1 in the area and never hear anything on the Enc channels. Nothing on Proscan either. I run Pro96comm on a 325 to log and can clearly see the Enc channel.
 

phantomcrow

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ALL of my Uniden scanners and I had a few of them logged all TG, frequencies, Radio ID's via ProScan software regarldless if they were encrypted or not. I think that it is imperative that if the radio skips over the encrypted communications that at least my software logs it. I want to see who or which units or agencies are active. Im not sure why your software skips encrypted transmissions but it has to be a setting or something. The original thread was basically is the Mototrbo encrypted transmission muted on the Uniden. Some people are telling me that it is yet I can go on youtube and watch a video showing that it clearly does not mute it. Im more confused now than I was earlier...
 

phantomcrow

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As Kruser said " Phase I only at this time. I see hiegtx is watching a Phase II system. Maybe that's the difference".

THIS - Uniden handles phase2 differently than phase1. I do not remember exactly why. I know Paul ( Upman) explained it, but don't remember. I think there is a data bit that may show in PH1 that is not present in PH2, but just a guess.

I only have PH1 in the area and never hear anything on the Enc channels. Nothing on Proscan either. I run Pro96comm on a 325 to log and can clearly see the Enc channel.
So you do see the data ie., the TG, Radio ID's and or frequencies if conventional on Proscan correct but your radio mutes shows ENC on Phase I?
 

phantomcrow

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See here:

Someone even asks "Does that scanner sound like that when monitoring digital encrypted Motrobo?"
 

KevinC

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Since that latest update of the FCC’s rules and regulations, encrypted transmissions are supposed to be ignored by any scanner manufactured after a certain date.

Can you please cite this new rule?
 

phantomcrow

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Can you please cite this new rule?
Thats absurd to make a rule where scanners purposely skip over an encrypted communications that you can't decrypt. If you say there is a law you should provide a link to a government website with such
 

kruser

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As Kruser said " Phase I only at this time. I see hiegtx is watching a Phase II system. Maybe that's the difference".

THIS - Uniden handles phase2 differently than phase1. I do not remember exactly why. I know Paul ( Upman) explained it, but don't remember. I think there is a data bit that may show in PH1 that is not present in PH2, but just a guess.

I only have PH1 in the area and never hear anything on the Enc channels. Nothing on Proscan either. I run Pro96comm on a 325 to log and can clearly see the Enc channel.

Are some users possibly thinking that signals badly affected by LSM are encrypted? A signal badly affected by LSM can sound just like encryption even though it's really in the clear.
For these instances, ProScan will usually log them along with the UID. But... if the scanner see the E flag, the Unidens basically skip the conversation like they should and continue scanning and ProScan will not log anything as the scanner never even really stopped anyway.
I do see Uniden's pause at times for a very brief time period when they encounter an ENC signal but more times than ever, they totally ignore it and keep on looking for the next signal you can actually understand. This is the preferred behavior in my eyes.
The above can all be seen with the likes of Pro96com as you mentioned which is exactly how I keep an eye on enc traffic. It works great plus I sure don't need to hear the sound of gibberish coming from my speakers while the Uniden is missing clear traffic that would be missed if it is stopped to listen to ENC noise.

For those that want them to stop, Uniden would need to offer a setting to allow that in firmware. This has been asked for many times but has never been acknowledged by Uniden. Something like that would probably be welcome by all so the majority of us don't need to hear the ENC signals that do nothing but tie up scanning for clear signals. A simple electronic ENC pause on/off switch in the firmware would suffice.
Of course @n1chu will say that is against FCC rules.

I really don't know why all my running instances of ProScan have never logged encrypted traffic from a Uniden but they have not. At least not on any of the Phase I or conventional P25 traffic I monitor.
I have nearly two dozen Uniden models at my disposal ranging from the early P25 models to the SDS series and they all behave the same in regards to nothing at all being logged by ProScan when an encrypted signal is seen.
They all also skip over encrypted signals with usually no pause at all. If the radio does not even pause on an encrypted signal, how the heck could ProScan log it! There's nothing to log so naturally ProScan would not log anything.

In all the years that Uniden models could receive P25 and all the years ProScan has logged those models, I've used virtually every version of ProScan ever released along with all the Uniden models I own and have never had them log any encrypted traffic in ProScan.
It's possible with the really old models that used the P25 card like the 796D etc., that they may have stopped on encrypted signals but it's been a while so I can't remember. I guess I should hook one to a computer and see.

If there's a setting I've overlooked in the radios or in ProScan, I'm all ears so I can change it and see if ProScan will then log this traffic!
Something tells me I'd have discovered this by now if this were true however.

One question, if a system uses other than AES encryption, how does a Uniden handle that? That being for P25.
For DMR signals, none of my DMR capable Unidens pause on encrypted DMR signals either. And no, they don't log to ProScan either if a encrypted DMR signal was detected!
I will confirm that is true with Basic Privacy mode as well as AES encryption for DMR. I watch DMR and NXDN signals with DSD+ and it will see the encrypted traffic on DMR and NXDN systems but the Uniden's simply ignore this traffic as well.
I don't have a ton of NXDN traffic here and most is in the clear but for the little that is known to be encrypted, the Unidens never pause on those signals either, just like they work for P25 and DMR.
 
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