Uniden DMA Architecture

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gilligan

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,136
Location
Hagerstown, MD
I've been thinking this over for several years and believe it is worth bringing up here. This is not meant to be a complaint so much as an encouragement for Uniden to reconsider their DMA architecture to better serve the customer base. I own a BCD436HP and have previously owned a GRE PSR-800, which is essentially now branded as a Whistler WS-1080. Having said that, I'm very familiar with both styles of programming and understand the pros and cons of each.

In most cases, people wish to program their scanner for a particular region, most of the time for the area they live in. While they may desire to program in other regions for travel, etc, it doesn't change the fact that they are monitoring a particular set of "systems", be they trunked or conventional. As they go about their ordinary use of the scanner, they may have different favorites lists for different areas, schedules, or other purposes. However, whether they are listening to one part of a system now (for example, fire calls), and another later on (police calls), they are still listening to the same system. Perhaps there would be a time when they would desire to listen to both police and fire calls. This is where it gets unnecessarily complicated...

With the current architecture, you would have perhaps a single favorites list with the local trunked system. Now you have to remember which "department" you have programmed into which quick key for that system in order to listen to either police, or fire, or both. If you then say that you don't want to have to remember so many quick keys (favorites, system, department), you could instead set up your scanner to use two favorites lists. Each list would duplicate the exact same trunked system, but would only have the selected department(s) enabled or programmed for that list. That sounds a lot easier for the typical scanner user; now you just remember which favorites list has police and which has fire, etc. But now the scanner scans the same trunked system twice, with each scan looking for different active talkgroups. Isn't there a better way?

This is where I think the problem lies. In reality, Uniden should follow the same idea that Whistler has regarding scanlists, even if they would be implemented as favorites lists in a similar fashion to what they have now. Each actual trunked system (and conventional channel or system) should be programmed into the radio only once. And then the scanner is only going to scan each system once, looking for all active talkgroups (from every active favorites list) on every scan of the system.

There should be two separate, isolated menu items for programming. One would be for programming in systems and departments. The other would be for programming in favorites lists. The systems would be added individually, with absolutely no duplication unless fully intended by the end user through programming. The favorites lists would be added in a similar fashion to how Whistler handles scanlists and scansets. You would set up the same favorites lists (up to 100), however you would select the particular departments and channels from the programmed systems and add them to the favorites lists.

Uniden has better scanners, in my opinion. They have all the bells and whistles. They have Discovery Mode, Analyze Mode, Quick Search, etc. But this programming flaw really makes it frustrating for a serious user to program the scanner. If you were going to utilize all 100 favorites lists in a particular area, you would end up with a lot of duplicated systems. Then when changes are made to those systems, whether it's new or modified talkgroups or additional radio IDs added, all of the lists have to be updated instead of just one. Whistler's architecture makes so much more sense, and it doesn't seem to me that Uniden would strictly have to keep their current architecture, as these changes have to do more with the way the firmware handles the hardware rather than how the hardware handles the radio, etc. Yes, it would be a major firmware revision. But it would be worth it.
 

marksmith

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
4,331
Location
Anne Arundel County, MD
I would say that this sounds interesting, but that not everyone shares the same thinking on what is easiest or more efficient.

I also own scanners from both manufacturers, both current and way in the past before anything similar to the current architecture came along.

Prior to DMA, Uniden, GRE, and others were very similar in their setup.

Once DMA, trunking systems, and then further, the SD card loaded memory and architecture came along, each manufacturer has diverged to slightly different thinking on how to set up a scanner. Both still deal with Systems as the base, since the advent of trunking, but then diverge from there.

Whistler has continued the GRE procedure in their top of line while Uniden uses the System, Deparment, Talkgroups procedure. Both use basically identical procedures for their non trunking radios.

Owning and using both over the years, I don't believe either Uniden or Whistler make a better scanner than the other. Each have traits and features that make them "better" in certain circumstances or listening to certain systems, now that phase 2 and simulcast has come along.

While I like the Whistler setup of scanlists to pick talkgroup subdivisions or collections, I tend to prefer the Uniden setup for the exact reason that I can set up departments to handle grouping of talkgroups on a system, and then quickly avoid (toggle on/off) fire, police, and other logical departments (or collections of talkgroups) as I wish while listening. While it can be accomplished by creating additional favorites lists, it does not require that.

Because of this capability, I generally prefer the Uniden architecture, even though I can and do create the same setups in my Whistler and GRE radios.

Mark
WS1095/536/436/996P2/HP1e/HP2e/996XT/325P2/396XT/PRO668/PSR800/PRO652
 

N4LX

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
75
Location
Happy Valley, OR
There is a much simpler solution, at least for the BCDx36HP and Home Patrol units. If you assign appropriate service tupe tags to your various talkgroups, you can simply turn on or off the services you want to hear at a givn time. I have my 436 and 536 programmed so that each county in which I am interested has its own favorites list and their quick keys correspond to the county number that appears on lifense plates to indicate a vehicle's county. This makes remembered ng the FLQK's easier. Then if I only want to listen to police traffic, I can turn off the other service types in the menu. I have also developed a scheme by which the QK's and number tags are the same regardless of what level. For instance, my county uses tag number 25, public safety QK's all start with a 2 (20 - Multi-Agency, 21-Police, 22-Fire, 23-EMS) them number tags are based on this as well (Police Dispatch - 210, Police Tactical - 211, Fire Tactical - 221, etc.) sure it's complicated, but once you get used to it, it's very effective.

I had a Pro-197 that I loved until I got my BVD536HP, at which point I decided to convert entirely to DMA. There is undoubtedly a learning curve factor, and both systems have their pros and cons, but ultimately I believe DMA to be far more powerful a system than the alternative.
 

Gilligan

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,136
Location
Hagerstown, MD
As per the replies, it was never disputed that the current architecture allows for all kinds of customization, and you can indeed use service types if you wish. The problem, however, is that there is generally duplication of systems on some level if you don't want to memorize so many quick keys. This would not be necessary if the systems themselves were separated from the favorites lists and the favorites would simply refer back to the systems instead of actually containing them.
 

trunker

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Messages
359
Location
Colorado
As per the replies, it was never disputed that the current architecture allows for all kinds of customization, and you can indeed use service types if you wish. The problem, however, is that there is generally duplication of systems on some level if you don't want to memorize so many quick keys. This would not be necessary if the systems themselves were separated from the favorites lists and the favorites would simply refer back to the systems instead of actually containing them.
Isn't that what OOM is?
I don't see where duplication is a problem if it helps you with setting up quick keys. There is plenty of room on the SD cards. Scanning 50 of these here and 50 of those there is just as fast as 100 somewhere else.
I setup my trunking systems by site and duplicate all talkgroups for each site. I don't trust DMA to check all site freqs in a multi-site system.
I also program my trunked systems so I don't have to use DQKs or SiteQKs. FLQKs and SQKs are hard enough to remember. It may take some creative planning but it can be done.
Selecting service types is not as quick as turning QKs on and off. If that works for some people great but I still prefer to select my services by QK.
The possibilities are endless with DMA.
 

Gilligan

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,136
Location
Hagerstown, MD
I don't see where duplication is a problem... I setup my trunking systems by site and duplicate all talkgroups for each site.
And when there is a change, you don't mind changing the talkgroups for every one of those sites?

If the trunked system was programmed into memory ONCE, then each favorites list (which you're using to separate sites) would point only at one of the sites inside the trunked system, instead of duplicating the entire system. If you make a change to the talkgroups on the system, you don't have to change it in every favorites list.

I also program my trunked systems so I don't have to use DQKs or SiteQKs. FLQKs and SQKs are hard enough to remember.
This is exactly my point. You're using favorites lists in lieu of SQKs and DQKs -- which makes sense. Who can remember so many quick keys? This is why having favorites lists set up to point at systems would make more sense, in my opinion.
 

trunker

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Messages
359
Location
Colorado
And when there is a change, you don't mind changing the talkgroups for every one of those sites?up to point at systems would make more sense, in my opinion.
Nope. I don't monitor that many sites and I can copy and paste in a matter of minutes. Not that big a deal for me to be able to scan the way I want to.
 
D

darunimal

Guest
"I don't trust DMA to check all site freqs in a multi-site system."
You are misinformed about Unidens, THAT is GRE that doesn't switch sites if not programmed correctly.
The best thing about these scanners (BCDx36HP Series) is: if doesn't "hear/receive" the sites' signal, it moves onto the next one very, very quickly.

Putting multi-sites under multiple quick key (SQK) doesn't make sense if you scan 4 sites at once, unlike the GREs the Unidens actually rotate around to all 4 sites under 1 System and can do it 75% faster if they are under 1 SQK, with different departments. Leave the multiple Favorites and multiple Systems (unless the Systems are actually different) and you'll speed up your scan time and receiving capability exponentially. Use different Favorite Lists for Combined Police & Fire or to seperate the FIRE and Police into 2 seperate Favorites, so 3 total= FL 1 Fire, FL 2 Police, FL 3 Police and Fire, keep the same quick key set-up you had in previous generation DMA scanners expond on the groups by a factor of 10, instead of group 1 now you have group 10-19 for Fire and then just vary the Favorites for your different listening pleasure.

or department levels 0-9,10-19, 20-29, 30-39, for different sites
or departments level 0-9 fire, 10-19 police, 20-29 ems med, 30 light power utilities
 
Last edited:
D

darunimal

Guest
It may take duplication, but its the way you set-up quick keys and utilize them, i felt the same way about Scansets and Scanlists when I got my first Digital GRE, they both have their pros and cons, but the last way I want these 2 companies to move forward is NOT a 1 way solutions, then we would have....
 
Last edited:

trunker

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Messages
359
Location
Colorado
"I don't trust DMA to check all site freqs in a multi-site system."
You are misinformed about Unidens, THAT is GRE that doesn't switch sites if not programmed correctly.

Putting multi-sites under multiple quick key (SQK) doesn't make sense if you scan 4 sites at once, unlike the GREs the Unidens actually rotate around to all 4 sites under 1 System and can do it 75% faster if they are under 1 SQK, with different departments.
Well I tried programming multi-site systems the way you're supposed to but found I was missing comms on other sites. That's when I tried one the system-one site method (side-by-side) and got better results and the scan speed is the same. You really can't follow 4 sites at once because the scanner needs to move to a different freq for a different site and the Unidens didn't seem to do that. I program my GREs the same way too so I don't have to bother with Stat and Roam.
I stuck with it because it also helps with keeping QKs the same for different memory types if you use many different scanners. That's the real bonus as the XT's already use site QKs.
 
Last edited:
D

darunimal

Guest
Well I tried programming multi-site systems the way you're supposed to but found I was missing comms. That's when I tried one the system-one site method and got better results and the scan speed is the same. You really can't follow 4 sites at once because the scanner needs to move to a different freq for a different site. I program my GREs the same way too so I don't have to bother with Stat and Roam.
I stuck with it because it also helps with keeping QKs the same for different memory types if you use many different scanners. That's the real bonus as the XT's already use site QKs.


That is pure MIS-INFORMATION, scan speed is not the same for any of the 4 separate Site/Systems, if all are at 1 second, then you have: 1 second + 20ms for memory to clear present system + 20ms to look up next system and read memory (all the while nothings being scanned (especially not tgid's)) then 3 seconds those 1 Systems' TGIDs are NOT being scanned (+ the 60ms clear, 60ms read from it moving to the next 3 separate systems).

The Uniden scanners are great at skipping over unheard Sites while the cached TGID's stay active in the memory and don't have to be looked up again again again and again.

The fastest receive and decode (scan) capability of the Unidens for 1 System with more than one Site, is to program them under 1 QUICK KEY (for the XT's its SQK and for the x36HP's DQK). They may actually do this better with a HOLD TIME set to 2 or 4 not 0 with a 4 Site System. Now of course larger Region-wide or Statewide Systems will not work better with 168 Sites under 1 System, but 8 Sites or 4 Sites that are always in and scanning, should just be done Continuously, we will call your method Contiguously

GREs are notorious for not liking different sites and not moving onto the next one, hence their "DATA DECODE THRESHOLD" in Trunked Radio System page under Multi-Site Settings ...

but please don't pass (misinformation) that onto the Unidens, they are far better at Multi-Site Systems big and small.

If you stuck with it to keep your scanners (Unidens & GREs) the same I can totally understand that, it just isn't faster or better for the Uniden scanner, your memory yes of course, just not the Uniden scanners' memory.

Missing comms is a matter of not being on the channel you want to listen to; because there scanners on another channels (audio). This has nothing to do with Systems or Sites, this has to do with: which Group/Departments have which TGID's, then Hold or possibly Priority is your new found friend or Channel Negative Delay or short duration Channel Delay of 0 or 1.

It likes like when somebody says an oven set to 500 degrees heats up faster then an oven set to 350; NO the 500 degree oven heats up-to 500!, now this all started because 1 guys didn't hear what the old Baker said and started to retell it many times to many people.
What the Baker actually said was: "I always come in early, to let the oven warm up for 1 hour to/at 350 degrees, it gets everything nice and hot, AND keeps all my bread CONSISTENT ALL-DAY long; but.... on the 3 days a year I'm late, I warm the oven to 500 degrees for 15 Minutes and then turn it down to 350 after the first 15, to compensate: for not having a FULL HOUR for everything including the outer casing and surrounds to get nice and HOT like USUAL," but the lie got told so many time it became the truth, but of course it's not and no longer includes a shred of the caveats the old man said.
 
Last edited:

trunker

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Messages
359
Location
Colorado
That is pure MIS-INFORMATION, scan speed is not the same for any of the 4 separate Site/Systems, if all are at 1 second, then you have: 1 second + 20ms for memory to clear present system + 20ms to look up next system and read memory (all the while nothings being scanned (especially not tgid's)) then 3 seconds those 1 Systems' TGIDs are NOT being scanned (+ the 60ms clear, 60ms read from it moving to the next 3 separate systems).
Well I'm open minded so I tried again programming all sites in one system on another scanner next to my new way and the scanners spend the same amount of time on each site.
The scanners (a 536 and a 436) are scanning almost identical. I say almost because they can never be totally in sync. Anyway, when nothing but one talkgroup is active in the system, they both pick it up on the first available site at the same time.
Now I'm only scanning 5 sites and about 250 IDs (on the Michigan state-wide system) but I see no difference with the scanners 'finding' the IDs either way.
You may be right about the GRE scanners but I gave up trying because my new way worked better and carried it over to the (new) Unidens because it also works just as well.
Again, it also helps me setup a QK map I can use with multiple scanners with different memory structures. That's the main reason I've stayed with it. When you have 4 or 5 different scanners going and want to change what you are scanning, being able to do that with QKs that are relatively the same is a big plus for my scanning pleasure.
 

trunker

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Messages
359
Location
Colorado
"I don't trust DMA to check all site freqs in a multi-site system."
You are misinformed about Unidens, THAT is GRE that doesn't switch sites if not programmed correctly.
The best thing about these scanners (BCDx36HP Series) is: if doesn't "hear/receive" the sites' signal, it moves onto the next one very, very quickly.
BTW, I misspoke. It is the GREs that have a problem with milti-site trunking. The Unidens have never used multiple control channels in one trunking system or site. Sorry for the 'misinformation'. Just been so long since I've had to deal with the problem I forgot which was which.
 

Ensnared

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
4,458
Location
Waco, Texas
GRE-Whistler Man

Recently, I learned about improved decoding on a Whistler digital radio. I will likely buy one because I detest the Uniden memory. To me, it is a matter of preference. I find the Whistler memory easier to understand, visually speaking. I can picture the structure better in my mind.

I hate my 436 Configuration keys. I use these like banks. I wish there were 20 or more configuration keys. Then, I could toggle them off and on.

To cope, I have made a favorite list with 10 configuration keys. I have one I call "roaming" for when I travel and want to isolate various agencies instead of the zip code or GPS method. I load all of the various departments in this favorite group and turn the ones I don't want to hear off.

What annoys me is having to assign a number to each system, department, etc. I would be happier if I could assign various quick keys en masse when programming with Sentinel.
 

Gilligan

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,136
Location
Hagerstown, MD
Just to clarify once more, the problem I see is not with Uniden's approach to *use* of the scanner -- quick keys for favorites lists, systems, and departments. It's with how the systems are physically stored, and why they are not sharing the data from the systems between the favorites lists.
 

Voyager

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Messages
12,060
The problem, however, is that there is generally duplication of systems on some level if you don't want to memorize so many quick keys.

And therein lies the issue and the solution... planning.

All my DQKs and SiteQKs are in a logical order. I can quickly recall all my Quick Keys because they are assigned in the same logical format.

ALL my 1-digit DQKs are for my primary Channels:
1 - PD
2 - Fire
3 - EMS
Etc.

For TRUNKING SYSTEMs, All my 2-digit DQKs are assigned in the same logical order for the last digit with the first digit the region...
1x - County 1
2x - County 2
3x - County 3
Etc.

This allows 10 categories for 10 counties (or regions or areas). Or in my case, 8 counties, 10 Sites (SiteQKs 90-99), plus one primary set of Departments.

My FLQKs and SQKs are laid out in a similar logical order. It rarely takes me two tries (if any more than one) to enable or disable what I want.

I also prepend all my tags with the applicable QK for easy reference.

So, the basic "complaint" that QKs are difficult to remember can be solved by planning.

I've detailed my SQK/DQK lists in other threads such as this one:
http://forums.radioreference.com/un...1698-sentinel-versus-butel-2.html#post2484856

Now, let me point out a flaw in your proposal... Say I want to have the same system in two different FLs, but using two different sites for the respective area I am in. Under your proposal, I would have to scan all sites on the System when I only want to scan one site. No scheme is perfect, but it's nice that there are alternatives. That is why I would not be in favor of Whistler or Uniden changing their systems to match the other. There also may be patent issues that would prevent that from happening. There is strength in diversity.
 
Last edited:

Gilligan

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,136
Location
Hagerstown, MD
Now, let me point out a flaw in your proposal... Say I want to have the same system in two different FLs, but using two different sites for the respective area I am in. Under your proposal, I would have to scan all sites on the System when I only want to scan one site. No scheme is perfect, but it's nice that there are alternatives. That is why I would not be in favor of Whistler or Uniden changing their systems to match the other. There also may be patent issues that would prevent that from happening. There is strength in diversity.
Actually it would be as simple as having both favorites lists refer to the same system but pointing at different sites.
 
D

darunimal

Guest
I agree the Grab and Share method from the GRE/Whisler is easy, the Uniden does allow you to append a System from one favorite to the next favorite, but it's way short of the object oriented solution, but the Unidens allows other "quick" things when 'using', versus the "quick" 'set-up' of the GRE/Whistler. I like both tracks and try not to compare and contrast the apples and oranges; I'd suggest to others not to because it's just fruitless to do so. Now if we can get together and write a Wiki or 2 for Introduction for RS/GRE/Whistlers users to Unidens and Uniden users an Introduction to GRE/Whistler, we might be able to help a lot more scanner users in the long run.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top