Unitrunker - and SYS ID 5A3E

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FLANO

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I had noticed before, but not put a thought into a problem that I have when using Unitrunker to monitor this system. It is a splinter system and automatically recognizes it as so. It also tells me it's not a type I, but sometimes says it is a Type II or Type IIi.

I trained the PRO-96 on it while I was watching the system and discovered that a lot of the TG's that have been ID'd by Unitrunker don't really correspond to a single TG. Instead a number of TG's end up showing up on the same TG with the PRO-96.

For example, TG 3216 on the PRO-96 handles most of the traffic for this TG, but Unitrunker ID's the TG's as 3216, 3217, 3221, and 3222. It is definitely the same entity, as I will switch from trunk mode to listening to each of the individual active frequencies as shown by Unitrunker and can continue to hear the conversation.

So my question is, if this is a combination system, how do I use Unitrunker to identify the fleet map?

Attached is what I've learned from Unitrunker and a log file. The first part of the log file, I got about 85% read on this system. The second part it goes back to 100%.

Thanks for any assistance.
John
SE of Tucson
 

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SCPD

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FLANO said:
I had noticed before, but not put a thought into a problem that I have when using Unitrunker to monitor this system. It is a splinter system and automatically recognizes it as so. It also tells me it's not a type I, but sometimes says it is a Type II or Type IIi.
It's either Type I or IIi (mixed). From the tiny log ... bank 6 (the 7th bank starting from bank 0) is a Type I block. If you see a group ID starting with hex "A" or "B" on this system - it's type I. From the rest of the log, I can't tell of other Type I blocks exist.

Quick review: On type I systems - the ID sent is really the radio id. Radio IDs in the same group are numerically related. The fleet code tells the program which bits to ignore when determining whether two radio ids belong to the same group.

I trained the PRO-96 on it while I was watching the system and discovered that a lot of the TG's that have been ID'd by Unitrunker don't really correspond to a single TG. Instead a number of TG's end up showing up on the same TG with the PRO-96.
The PRO-96 is probably interpreting the radio ids as Type II group IDs. In which case the radio ignores the last 4 bits.

For example, TG 3216 on the PRO-96 handles most of the traffic for this TG, but Unitrunker ID's the TG's as 3216, 3217, 3221, and 3222. It is definitely the same entity, as I will switch from trunk mode to listening to each of the individual active frequencies as shown by Unitrunker and can continue to hear the conversation.
Yep - you'll need to figure out the fleet size for each bank.

So my question is, if this is a combination system, how do I use Unitrunker to identify the fleet map?
I don't have an easy answer. Start with a small fleet map (16 radios per group). If you hear (and I do mean hear) talk on one group that sounds like a reply to another - and they are numerically adjacent - try bumping the fleet code to the nexg bigger size (eg. from 16 radios per fleet to 32).

Attached is what I've learned from Unitrunker and a log file. The first part of the log file, I got about 85% read on this system. The second part it goes back to 100%.
For some reason - the program at one point thought this to be a UHF/VHF system. When first monitoring a system - go ahead and fill in the frequency for the active control channel. That will at least nail down the band and prevent this type of confusion.

Matt's comments aren't far off ... the program supports Type I fleetmaps. You can fill in the size code for each bank. However - it is a manual process. Making the program smart enough to fill in sizecodes (which some infrequent exceptions) is a ways off.
 

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Looking at John's log file a bit more: I see radio 0C96 reply to radio 0C95 on a group call. Radio 0C91 joins in a moment later. This tiny sample of radio IDs differs by the last (right most) 3 bits.

0C91 = 0000110010010001
0C95 = 0000110010010101
0C96 = 0000110010010110

The smallest fleet code that can group these radios will be sizes A, E, or F. Each of these is for groups of 16 radios. Size "A" would be a good start for this bank (bank zero).

Looking down the log further - I see radios A5B5 and A3A9 talking - AT THE SAME TIME. Obviously these radios are not in the same group - but they are inside the same bank.

A5B5 = 1010010110110101
A3A9 = 1010001110101001

These radio ids begin to differ at the 11th bit (from the right) so the corresponding fleet code must be smaller than these (to keep these radios in separate groups). That eliminates sizecodes "O" and "Q" as possibilities.

Further down I see 1210 and 1213 talking ... this re-inforces sizecode A for bank 0. Ditto for 0F91 talking to 0F97. A3A9 stopped yakking long enough for A3B9 to answer. We can bump block 6 up another size code. Here are the bits ...

A3A9 = 1010001110101001
A3B9 = 1010001110111001

The left-most (or most significant) bit where they differ is the 5th bit from the right. That implies a grouping of 32 radios. We can bump this bank to a B, C, G, or H sizecode.

Here's another pair - radio 14DA talks to 14D0. Agains confirms size "A" for block 0.

Best guess conclusion is Block 0 = "A", Block 6 = "B" and "?" for the remaining blocks.

Oh crud. Thanks John. I think I see why the program thought the sytems was UHF. You had already set the control channel frequency as an 800 mhz freq. The program ignored this and took a wrong turn. I need to fix this.

-rick
 

FLANO

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OK Rick here goes :)

Since this appears to be possibly a Type I, I'm a little confused on how to tell Unitrunker what to do. It does appear tho, that I've got to do some other work with this system first - ID the Fleetmap.

I've reprogrammed my PRO-96 to a Fleetmap of E1P10. That was one of three default settings that did not change my currently ID'd TG's. I did this on the assumption that the TG's might be correct, since the radio did correctly group RID's under the TG, some of the time.

I'm guessing when you say manual fill in, I'll have to use the Insert for Fleet. I'm not sure how that information is useable. Assuming this is where you want me to enter the fleetmap size, what is needed to be filled in and what to the positions represent?

Looking at the Command Response section after I chose Insert, Fleet:

ID Min 0 Max 0
Agency 00 00 Fleet 00 00
Subfleet 00 00 io 00 00

How is the above used?

As far entering in the frequency, I didn't have to do that. Unitrunker took care of that for me :)

Thanks again,
John
SE of Tucson
 

FLANO

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Rick,

Ok, went over my head a little bit on this one. I understand that looking at the binary representation for the RID's will help to determine the number of radios per fleet, but then you refer to them as "alpha" sizes for a specific bank. Is there a chart or easy way for me to convert to binary the RID's?

I looked at the wiki,
http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1

I'm guessing that you are referring to the "Type I Block Size Codes" section. If so, how do I enable this within Unitrunker?

I think I have probably added to my own confusion on this one :)

I have begun a fresh log file for you. It's been going since about 1am, where there is no activity. This is a fairly active site during the day, so I'll let it run for a while. I should be able to post a new longer log tomorrow night.

Sorry about creating more work on the "wrong turn" :)

Thanks again,
John
SE of Tucson
 

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FLANO said:
Ok, went over my head a little bit on this one. I understand that looking at the binary representation for the RID's will help to determine the number of radios per fleet, but then you refer to them as "alpha" sizes for a specific bank. Is there a chart or easy way for me to convert to binary the RID's?
I looked at the wiki,
http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1
Yes. That's it. There are eight blocks (zero through seven). When you look at a four digit hexadecimal ID - the first digit tells you which block. There are 16 values possible for the first digit but only eight blocks so the digits fit into block as pairs. IDs 0XXX and 1XXX fit into block 0. IDs 2XXX and 3XXX fit into block 1. IDs 8XXX and 9XXX fit into block 4. IDs AXXX and BXXX fit into block 5. BTW - above I mentioned IDs A3A9 and A3B9 as belonging to block 6 - that was a typo. They're block 5. IDs CXXX and DXXX fit into block 6. IDs EXXX and FXXX fit into block 7.

I'm guessing that you are referring to the "Type I Block Size Codes" section. If so, how do I enable this within Unitrunker?
From the main menu ... nsert ... [F]leet. You can enter / edit the eight size codes there.

I think I have probably added to my own confusion on this one :)
:)

I have begun a fresh log file for you. It's been going since about 1am, where there is no activity. This is a fairly active site during the day, so I'll let it run for a while. I should be able to post a new longer log tomorrow night.
You'll want to make sure the program isn't stuck on UHF/VHF mode. Open the SYS file in notepad and remove any line that reads "type=VHF/UHF".
 

FLANO

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Rick,

Ok, finally got a moment to breathe :)

I did capture the file, but it is a whopper of a file and I can't load it up here. It's 5.6mb compressed, 297mb expanded. Don't know if you are still interested. Let me know.

So, with that in mind, it begs a couple of questions and comments.

1. I am able to bring up about 10 minutes worth of log file in Excel. I use Excel, because that it is the only program that I have that allows me to evaluate the data, i.e. sort it to get rid of the place markers, time signals, etc.... I can't even begin to look at the wealth of information in this log file. Do you use a specific program to look at large log files and if so, what do you use?

2. I would love to be able to attempt to figure out the Type I sizecodes, but having a little challenge. I know this is not built into this program, but something that maybe you'll think about. I use another program ATCSMon that allows one to replay the log file. Not only can I replay it, but I can set up parameters to filter out or to filter information into another log file. For example, I can look at one specific control station to see all the related activity. It would sure be nice to be able to replay these logs with a filtration system that allowed one to look at only specific TG activity and/or RID activity, while trying out different Fleet Maps. This would give a good direction in figuring out the layout... and hopefully show right away, when the correct map is selected, as the TG/RID traffic would flow cleanly :)

3. I noticed with this sytem that I keep getting this ghost system being created whenever I'm watching this system. It is ID'd as 1FFE. Well, now that I'm looking at the log files, I'm realizing that it is the old system ID for this system. The problem is that I've seen this before on a number of the other trunking systems that I've looked that are Motorola, whether it is 400mhz, 800mhz, or 900mhz systems. I keep deleting them as bogus systems, and could never figure out why. I'll bet if I go back and look at all those systems, the bogus ID's are probably the "old" system ID's. Any clue as to why it is creating these old system ID's?

4. I've been playing around with the PRO-97 and have tried the E1P8 Fleet Map, but it's not right, although close. I am able to follow most TG's, with some interrupton/loss. Some TG's are being duplicated with different TG ID's. Still trying to work this out the old fashioned way....ugh.

5. Any other hints or suggestions that you could give to help out solving this Fleet Map would be greatly appreciated :)

Thanks again for a great progam,

John
SE of Tucson
 
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