BCD436HP/BCD536HP: 'Unscannable' trunked system or just me? Shift DMR Australia

[Frewster]

Hi Uniden Enthusiasts,

I'm pretty new to RR and to trunked scanning but have been scanning conventional analogue for 30+ years.

Got myself a UBCD536PT last year and have been able to successfully configure the scanner for all but one of the local unencrypted trunked systems of interest.

This one is causing me endless frustration....

"Shift DMR", referenced in the RRDB as follows: Shift DMR Trunking System, Various, Multi-State

It's listed as DMR Tier 3 Standard and my closest site would be Mt. Coot-tha.

I can monitor it in DSDPlus fastlane with results as shown in the attached screenshot.

Worthy of note is that DSD identifies it as TIIIStd (HYT) and apparently RAS-enabled. I understand both of these could be troublesome from the scanner's perspective.

No matter how I configure things on the scanner - MotoTRBO trunked, Motorola OFT etc. - I can decode and follow voice on DSD but nothing comes up on the scanner. I figured if the scanner was seeing it as Hytera then it would show XPT on the control channel but it comes up as DT3.

If I program an active voice channel frequency in manually, then I can hear the conversation. The LCN finder seems to yield no useful results. I've tried manually assigning the site frequencies shown in DSD with LCNs based on 'even OTA channel number/2' or '(odd OTA channel-1)/2' in Sentinel to no avail.

Sorry, this is a bit long-winded but I was trying to pre-empt with all the details I have.

I'm not sure if I should cut my losses and just forget about monitoring this one on the scanner or if one of you might notice something glaring that I've missed.

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

F

 

[u2brent]

Try this,
Program a system as MotoTRBO Trunk
add site
add freqs
166.8125
DCC/Color Code 1
LCN 0
167.4125
DCC/Color Code 1
LCN 594
Add Department And TGIDS
With ID Search ON

Run LCN Finder, That's where I'd start.
it appears 167.4125 is LCN 594 gotta find the 166.8125 control Ch's LCN for the scanner to track properly
start with those 2 as they are active. Keep track of LCN's as they are found and program as they are found

Shift DMR Site: Mt Coot-tha

Shift DMR Site: Mt Coot-tha Details

www.radioreference.com

Add freqs as you see them in use in DSD/ or scan conventionally to see if other freqs are active.

 

[Ubbe]

You can use the LSN/LCN calculator by thewraith2008 and get the answers how to program the LCN's.
Enter what you know, your 167.4125 frequency and its LSN of 1189 and use the standard 12,5KHz RF spacing in the calculator.

You'll then see that the base frequency are 160.0000 and you can look in the table it generates that 168.8125 have a LCN of 546 and the LCN for 167.4125 are 594. If you find any other DMR frequencies that decode in DSDPlus as DMRIII Hytera then enter those as well. It could be for another site but it doesn't disturb operations if you have those entered in the wrong site.

If you find another control channel then enter that as another site but all DMR voice channels you can find can be entered with their LCN numbers in all sites.

/Ubbe

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

Welcome to the RR forums: Did you turn on the business service type? The 3 known talkgroups ID'ed for this system fall under this type ("Tag" column in the RRDB) "Business" is not enabled by default

 

[Frewster]

Thanks all for your suggestions. I'll investigate based on what you've said and follow up.
Cheers

 

[Frewster]

Try this,
Program a system as MotoTRBO Trunk
add site
add freqs
166.8125
DCC/Color Code 1
LCN 0
167.4125
DCC/Color Code 1
LCN 594
Add Department And TGIDS
With ID Search ON

Run LCN Finder, That's where I'd start.
it appears 167.4125 is LCN 594 gotta find the 166.8125 control Ch's LCN for the scanner to track properly
start with those 2 as they are active. Keep track of LCN's as they are found and program as they are found

Shift DMR Site: Mt Coot-tha

Shift DMR Site: Mt Coot-tha Details

www.radioreference.com

Add freqs as you see them in use in DSD/ or scan conventionally to see if other freqs are active.

Hey u2brent,

Set this up this morning so the LCN finder has been running for around 5-6 hours and still only on 1/2.
When I look to see what it's done, I find the 167.4125 has changed from the 594 I set to 4095.
Sounds like a nonsense LCN from a bad decode, yeah?
166.8125 still sits on LCN 0.

Traffic sort of tails off around this time of day so I'll try again on Monday.

Oh, and it shouldn't matter whether the Department and TGID I add are just dummy ones, or should I seed it with a real TGID from DSD?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Frewster]

You can use the LSN/LCN calculator by thewraith2008 and get the answers how to program the LCN's.
Enter what you know, your 167.4125 frequency and its LSN of 1189 and use the standard 12,5KHz RF spacing in the calculator.

You'll then see that the base frequency are 160.0000 and you can look in the table it generates that 168.8125 have a LCN of 546 and the LCN for 167.4125 are 594. If you find any other DMR frequencies that decode in DSDPlus as DMRIII Hytera then enter those as well. It could be for another site but it doesn't disturb operations if you have those entered in the wrong site.

If you find another control channel then enter that as another site but all DMR voice channels you can find can be entered with their LCN numbers in all sites.

/Ubbe

Hey UBBE,

I did actually have a bit of a play with this calculator the other day but was only looking at LCNs so didn't have the LSN column visible to compare with what I was seeing in the DSD channel list.

Things seem to line up in part but I'm confused about the Ch 1/2 control channels. Should I leave them be in the scanner or set them to what the calculator says?

I think most of the users have knocked off for the day now so might have to wait till Monday to validate.

Thanks for your help.
F

 

[Frewster]

Welcome to the RR forums: Did you turn on the business service type? The 3 known talkgroups ID'ed for this system fall under this type ("Tag" column in the RRDB) "Business" is not enabled by default

ACK. I've added the specific TGs referred to in the database and turned on the Business service type.
Not until now though so I'll see if it changes anything.
Thanks
F

 

[Ubbe]

When I look to see what it's done, I find the 167.4125 has changed from the 594 I set to 4095.
Sounds like a nonsense LCN from a bad decode, yeah?

It needs to see a channel grant with a TG and a LSN/LCN to be able to check all frequencies entered into that site to try and find that TG and link that voice frequency to the LCN. When the voice channel drops the call it sends a LSN/LCN to send the radios back to the control channel and if the scanner can find one control channel it will link that LCN to that frequency.

Enter all the 11 frequencies for that site and their LCN's from the calculator and it should trunk track. No need to run LCN finder when you already have enough data from DSDPlus. When there's a RAS enabled system the error correction of received databits doesn't work so there will be a lot more errors received if you don't have a 5 bar receiver strength.

/Ubbe

 

[Frewster]

It needs to see a channel grant with a TG and a LSN/LCN to be able to check all frequencies entered into that site to try and find that TG and link that voice frequency to the LCN. When the voice channel drops the call it sends a LSN/LCN to send the radios back to the control channel and if the scanner can find one control channel it will link that LCN to that frequency.

Enter all the 11 frequencies for that site and their LCN's from the calculator and it should trunk track. No need to run LCN finder when you already have enough data from DSDPlus. When there's a RAS enabled system the error correction of received databits doesn't work so there will be a lot more errors received if you don't have a 5 bar receiver strength.

/Ubbe

Thanks Ubbe.

I've gone into Sentinel and re-entered all the frequencies for the Mt. Coot-tha site and assigned LCNs to all of them based on the Wraith2008 calculator, set the colour code to what it's meant to be and entered the known talkgroups that are coming up in DSD.

I still have the site running in the scanner and DSD and there is no activity on the scanner when it's active on DSD (ID Search is enabled).

Strangely though, if I go into the System Status monitor on the Analyze menu of the scanner, I see the bars with solid signal, full and consistent quality and the activity bar moves in line with the talk I'm decoding in DSD. It definitely seems like the scanner is seeing the system, just not decoding it properly/at all.

I don't know where the scanner gets the System ID and Site ID from? It's showing 0000Ch for System and 0017 for Site. DSD is showing the Site as L13. It also shows Freqs 1 and Color 1. The color 1 is correct.

Thinking I might still just have to write this one up as a loss.

F

 

[Ubbe]

I still have the site running in the scanner and DSD and there is no activity on the scanner when it's active on DSD (ID Search is enabled).

In DSD it will show the LSN and frequency for voice calls. Check that it matches the calculator that the LSN is one of the ones for that LCN and the frequency you have programmed.

/Ubbe

 

[Frewster]

In DSD it will show the LSN and frequency for voice calls. Check that it matches the calculator that the LSN is one of the ones for that LCN and the frequency you have programmed.

/Ubbe

Hey mate,

Checked, double checked and even triple checked that everything lined up before I downloaded to the scanner in Sentinel.
The only thing I wasn't really sure about was whether I should assign the calculated LCNs to ALL the site frequencies or leave the two that come up in DSD as Ch 1 & 2 (the two channels that you see DSD tuning between in the FMP log window). At this point they all have the corresponding LCN from Wraith's calculator.

F

 

[Ubbe]

Read the scanner to get all settings saved, if different from what are already in Sentinel. Then run the LCN Finder and as soon as it has found one LCN you can check if that match your original programming.

/Ubbe

 

[Frewster]

Read the scanner to get all settings saved, if different from what are already in Sentinel. Then run the LCN Finder and as soon as it has found one LCN you can check if that match your original programming.

/Ubbe

Hey Ubbe,

Just got round to trying that. I set the LCN Finder going and stopped it after the first hit 1/11.
Downloaded from the scanner into a new system in Sentinel and find it's scrubbed ALL the manually assigned LCNs I'd put in back to zero again. Now I could understand it changing the one that hit back, but every single one??????

Definitely something weird going on.

F

 

[Ubbe]

Definitely something weird going on.

That's how it is designed, so you'll know what LCN are the actual ones it has found. It is a bit weird as it could use inverted text for the ones it had verified and leave the rest alone, but there's always improvements that can be done after we discover something that isn't optimal. Maybe @JoeBearcat can add that to the wishlist.

I usually make a copy of the system and use one to program a bunch of known and unknown frequencies that some might not even belong to that system and use that to investigate and find LCN's and the other copy have the real working frequencies and LCN's.

Did that found LCN match what you already had programmed?

/Ubbe