Unusual CalFire Licenses in Mendocino County

[zerg901]

Unusual Cal Fire Licenses in Mendocino County

KVX 92 - maybe at Covelo CDF Station - base on 151.16 and 151.445

KVR 63 - maybe at Boonville CDF Station - base on 151.145 and 151.19

KVY 20 - maybe at Fort Bragg CDF Station - base on 151.145

These analog base stations (11K2F3E) seem to be on some of the local Tac channels (151.16, 151.19, and 151.445)

151.145 shows in the RRDB as 'Special Tac A' - iirc it was the former CDF Tac 1

maybe all are new radio licenses or channels in the last year

Is Cal Fire installing base stations in their fire stations on their Tac channels? Or does it have something to do with CDF Command 8 151.445R or CDF Command 10 151.19R?

 

[Mike_G_D]

Basically frequency re-use statewide.

They've been doing this since forever...

Just more noticeable now with more standardized channel designations and large radio loads due to radios now having that capacity.

Command frequencies' in one area can be re-used in a different area as a Tac channel. Now the tacs all are standardized across the state as well as the Commands, etc. That way, when resources, for example, are called in from outside the local area as they often are, the CDF personnel can switch their radios to the designated Command and Tac channels using common names throughout the state.

Here where I am, the local ECC is Monte Vista, 3300 dispatching on 151.190 MHz, repeater output, with an output tone of 131.8 Hz. That same frequency is reused in distant areas as Tac 4 simplex with a tone of 192.8 Hz or as Command 10 with a tone of 103.5 Hz in repeater mode.

It all depends on where you are. Here, Monte Vista commonly uses Tac 5, 151.250 MHz, and Tac 8, 151.370 MHz. They wouldn't use Tac 4 because that is the main ECC dispatch channel in this area.

California is a really big state with terrain that is mountainous and can vary wildly. Because of a shortage of available VHF frequencies CDF makes a good use of frequency re-use thereby giving the available frequencies multiple uses and carefully assigning them according to the regional areas.

Whether a given frequency is a tactical, command, or local dispatch depends on the area being covered. But it is never all three or even two at the same time.

In my area, again, 151.190 MHz is a local CDF ECC dispatch frequency. Elsewhere, distantly enough away that it will not cause or suffer from interference with the Monte Vista area, it may be used as Tac 4 or Command 10.

Modern radios now can have all frequencies preprogrammed into them so they have standardized the naming, again, so as to allow teams normally stationed at one ECC area to easily switch their radios to whatever is needed when called into another distant area. It's certainly possible that a team based here in the Monte Vista region could be called up for emergency help in a very distant part of the state and wind up being assigned to use Tac 4 but they would normally not be assigned that particular tac channel when here in there normal operating area (because that frequency is used as dispatch here).

So no mystery at all. CDF is not "...installing base stations in their fire stations on their Tac channels..." as you put it. Just business as normal.

-Mike

 

[zerg901]

The FCC licenses show bases at CDF fire stations on the tac channels.

 

[Mike_G_D]

Are you sure? Since FCC data shows frequency, emission designator, location, etc. and NOT the CDF channel designation then how do you know that a base on 151.190 MHz is for Tac 4? It may indeed be a base station for a local ECC on that frequency OR a Command on Command 10. Both of which can be base and/or repeater.

Otherwise, I would not be surprised if they have full capability base radios that can operate on all CDF channels statewide these days at most if not all regional ECC's.

For convenience they may well have statewide base and/or repeater license designations on all of the frequencies used by the CDF that can be any type for best interop capability to be as flexible as possible.

My statement about them not installing base radios for tac channels really meant that I don't think they are adding anything new here. It is highly likely they've had this capability for quite some time. Tac channels are primarily meant for local tactical use, of course, but, unless otherwise specified, need not be restricted solely to mobile only use (many are and/or have restrictive output power limits). Usage-wise, though, it's of limited value to a base located at a regional office unless the incident is near that office. However, there may be remote bases tied into the ECC and linked by wireline, fiber, or microwave, etc., that could be used if the ECC really needed to operate directly on the tac channel. I've not heard of this being done as they have fairly strict rules for what kind of traffic is handled on tac channels vs. Command, etc. but technically possible. The CDF has well developed procedures in place and their firefighters are very well trained. They normally will proceed to an incident with an assigned tac and usually talk to the "base" being the local ECC either local 1 or 2 in my area. Tacs are for on-site communications while the "base" only monitors it's assigned channel and the lead folks on scene make regular reports back to them as the situation progresses or when queried by the local ECC dispatcher.

-Mike

 

[flux4201]

Unusual Cal Fire Licenses in Mendocino County

KVX 92 - maybe at Covelo CDF Station - base on 151.16 and 151.445

KVR 63 - maybe at Boonville CDF Station - base on 151.145 and 151.19

KVY 20 - maybe at Fort Bragg CDF Station - base on 151.145

These analog base stations (11K2F3E) seem to be on some of the local Tac channels (151.16, 151.19, and 151.445)

151.145 shows in the RRDB as 'Special Tac A' - iirc it was the former CDF Tac 1

maybe all are new radio licenses or channels in the last year

Is Cal Fire installing base stations in their fire stations on their Tac channels? Or does it have something to do with CDF Command 8 151.445R or CDF Command 10 151.19R?

Taken from the RR Wiki..





As stated a FB is a station class code signifying communication of a base station radio to mobile units, this would be for simplex or duplex non repeated systems including tactical channels (like CALAW1 154.920 for example), this could also mean base stations talking "direct" to mobile units on a repeater output frequency as well. Its common to see licenses at fire stations for their base station radios. And if you dig into the dates on the license you will see (for example the KVX92 license) goes back to the year 2000 so not necessarily new in any way.

 

[es93546]

During my career, 18 years of which were in California, the last 10 of those working on an R5 national forest (Inyo) there were strict rules on not programming any tactical or the set of 6 federal all agency itinerants. (168.6500, 163.1000, 168.6125 . . . ) in any base radio. This included all of the regional tacs and the NIFC tacs. As far as I know this was the situation with CDF and their tacs as well. l traveled the state on fires and as an investigator as well. I used about half the NF systems in the state and was on a number of CDF or fires that were all on SRA. So I used their systems every once in awhile. When I was on state fires I often went as a resource unit leader and assembled the IAP (shift plan) that included the ICS 205 form, the comm plan. I had to look it over before printing the plan. I know that CDF did not have base stations on Tac frequencies, at least in the areas where the frequencies were being used as tacs, not in other areas of the state where that same frequency might be used on a local net, the local command net, etc. I know that radio protocol for both the USFS and CDF was nearly identical. The one exception is that CDF relies on permanent mountain top command repeaters and the feds depend on the NIFC system. I think CDF should ramp up its portable repeater use and get some linking frequencies for them as well. The very large fires of the last 5-10 years have produced a need for CDF to order up a NIFC system. Last year things became a little tight when NIFC started doling out frequencies for these huge fires. Fortunately, the action on the SRA started before the higher elevations of the feds got big. If the Creek Fire was burning at the same time all those fires to west of it was burning at the same time, or if a major fire broke out on the Monterey Ranger District of the Los Padres, the frequency crunch may have been more challenging. If CDF could build something similar to the NIFC system this would reduce the freq. crunch.

On the Mammoth RD we had 168.3500 in our 2 entrance stations and technically those are base stations, but the radio tech somehow got the authorization for them as we didn't have power to either one and they were seasonal in nature.

The Mendocino Unit is covered by Command 8 and according to my older material, all of the repeaters on it are in Mendocino County. Command 8 is supposed to cover Humboldt and Del Norte counties as well. It has an output frequency of 151.4450. These additional command nets remind me of the "olden days" when each region has a "Regional" repeater net. I think they were used if Commands 1 and 2 were being used in the same area. When I moved to California in 1981 there were 6 CDF regions, no there are only 2. They also called their units "Ranger Units" at that time.

I've never heard of any wildland fire agency having bases communicate on tac frequencies. This is not in accordance with the chain of command set up in ICS. Normally each division has its own tac and a division supervisor is the lowest level of command that uses it. The IC, branch directors, ops chiefs and some other ops positions all use the command net. ICP communications does not attempt to use the tac frequencies. If there is an emergency, that is when ground troops are authorized to get on National Air Guard so the ICP does not try to raise a crew on the division's tac. I know that conservation camps sometimes communicate with crews and personnel on their local net by simplex, but not on their assigned tacs.

 

[zerg901]

Looking at KVX 92 -

77251 Covelo Rd - that is the Cal Fire 5 bay station at Covelo - 77251 Covelo Rd, Covelo, CA 95428 | Zillow

FB - 151.16 + 151.445 - first use 8/1/2013 - 11K2F3E - 50 Watts / 40 W ERP

FX1 - 159.27 + 159.30 + 159.33 - first use 1/24/1996 - 11K2F3E - 50 W / 40 W ERP

Control Point at 77251 Covelo Rd which is the same as the radio transmitter location

Control Point telo number is 916-657-9999 - (Willits shows same phone number on other license - 9999 might not be the real number)

Associated callsigns are - KA3134 (73 mobile freqs statewide) - KBU278 on Cahto Peak - KRU655 on Iron Peak

Iron Peak has 151.385 R

Cahto Peak has 31.18 R + 151.265 R + 151.355 R + 151.385 R + 151.445 R - 153.755 R - 155.5725 FB - 158.9025 M

Per RRDB - for Mendocino County - Mendocino Local is 151.385 R 159.27 in - Tacs are 2 (151.16) + 3 (151.175) + 4 (151.19) + 6 (151.325) + 11(151.445) - Air Tac is 22 - A/G is CDF 3

Per RRDB - for CDF statewide or regional - Command 1 is 151.355 R 159.30 in - Command 2 is 159.285 R 159.33 in - Command 8 is 154.445 R 159.345 in

Using all of that info you should be able to account for all freqs on KVX 91 except 151.16. (and we have to assume that Covello is near the Command 8 repeater on Cahto Peak) - (Cahto Peak 151.445 R is listed as Command 8 in a CDF radio document)

----------------

Bonus points if you are still awake

Cahto Peak - 155.5725 FB - digital and analog - "first used" 2018 - (probably is MDT channel but is also licensed as 11K2F3E)

Cahto Peak - 158.9025 M - digital and analog - first used 2018

Cahto Peak - 153.755 R - isnt that the Cal OES channel?

 

[flux4201]

Looking at KVX 92 -

77251 Covelo Rd - that is the Cal Fire 5 bay station at Covelo - 77251 Covelo Rd, Covelo, CA 95428 | Zillow

FB - 151.16 + 151.445 - first use 8/1/2013 - 11K2F3E - 50 Watts / 40 W ERP

FX1 - 159.27 + 159.30 + 159.33 - first use 1/24/1996 - 11K2F3E - 50 W / 40 W ERP

Control Point at 77251 Covelo Rd which is the same as the radio transmitter location

Control Point telo number is 916-657-9999 - (Willits shows same phone number on other license - 9999 might not be the real number)

Associated callsigns are - KA3134 (73 mobile freqs statewide) - KBU278 on Cahto Peak - KRU655 on Iron Peak

Iron Peak has 151.385 R

Cahto Peak has 31.18 R + 151.265 R + 151.355 R + 151.385 R + 151.445 R - 153.755 R - 155.5725 FB - 158.9025 M

Per RRDB - for Mendocino County - Mendocino Local is 151.385 R 159.27 in - Tacs are 2 (151.16) + 3 (151.175) + 4 (151.19) + 6 (151.325) + 11(151.445) - Air Tac is 22 - A/G is CDF 3

Per RRDB - for CDF statewide or regional - Command 1 is 151.355 R 159.30 in - Command 2 is 159.285 R 159.33 in - Command 8 is 154.445 R 159.345 in

Using all of that info you should be able to account for all freqs on KVX 91 except 151.16. (and we have to assume that Covello is near the Command 8 repeater on Cahto Peak) - (Cahto Peak 151.445 R is listed as Command 8 in a CDF radio document)

----------------

Bonus points if you are still awake

Cahto Peak - 155.5725 FB - digital and analog - "first used" 2018 - (probably is MDT channel but is also licensed as 11K2F3E)

Cahto Peak - 158.9025 M - digital and analog - first used 2018

Cahto Peak - 153.755 R - isnt that the Cal OES channel?

What exactly are you trying to figure out from all this? If your trying to understand why they have a license at a station for those frequencies then your probably never going to find out the actual truth as to why the station has a license for those frequencies without talking to the state techs that do all the FCC licensing. Asking here is only going to give you everybody else's best guess and most of everybody elses best guesses are not actual fact but speculation based on other speculation.

During my career, 18 years of which were in California, the last 10 of those working on an R5 national forest (Inyo) there were strict rules on not programming any tactical or the set of 6 federal all agency itinerants. (168.6500, 163.1000, 168.6125 . . . ) in any base radio. This included all of the regional tacs and the NIFC tacs. As far as I know this was the situation with CDF and their tacs as well. l traveled the state on fires and as an investigator as well. I used about half the NF systems in the state and was on a number of CDF or fires that were all on SRA. So I used their systems every once in awhile. When I was on state fires I often went as a resource unit leader and assembled the IAP (shift plan) that included the ICS 205 form, the comm plan. I had to look it over before printing the plan. I know that CDF did not have base stations on Tac frequencies, at least in the areas where the frequencies were being used as tacs, not in other areas of the state where that same frequency might be used on a local net, the local command net, etc. I know that radio protocol for both the USFS and CDF was nearly identical. The one exception is that CDF relies on permanent mountain top command repeaters and the feds depend on the NIFC system. I think CDF should ramp up its portable repeater use and get some linking frequencies for them as well. The very large fires of the last 5-10 years have produced a need for CDF to order up a NIFC system. Last year things became a little tight when NIFC started doling out frequencies for these huge fires. Fortunately, the action on the SRA started before the higher elevations of the feds got big. If the Creek Fire was burning at the same time all those fires to west of it was burning at the same time, or if a major fire broke out on the Monterey Ranger District of the Los Padres, the frequency crunch may have been more challenging. If CDF could build something similar to the NIFC system this would reduce the freq. crunch.

On the Mammoth RD we had 168.3500 in our 2 entrance stations and technically those are base stations, but the radio tech somehow got the authorization for them as we didn't have power to either one and they were seasonal in nature.

The Mendocino Unit is covered by Command 8 and according to my older material, all of the repeaters on it are in Mendocino County. Command 8 is supposed to cover Humboldt and Del Norte counties as well. It has an output frequency of 151.4450. These additional command nets remind me of the "olden days" when each region has a "Regional" repeater net. I think they were used if Commands 1 and 2 were being used in the same area. When I moved to California in 1981 there were 6 CDF regions, no there are only 2. They also called their units "Ranger Units" at that time.

I've never heard of any wildland fire agency having bases communicate on tac frequencies. This is not in accordance with the chain of command set up in ICS. Normally each division has its own tac and a division supervisor is the lowest level of command that uses it. The IC, branch directors, ops chiefs and some other ops positions all use the command net. ICP communications does not attempt to use the tac frequencies. If there is an emergency, that is when ground troops are authorized to get on National Air Guard so the ICP does not try to raise a crew on the division's tac. I know that conservation camps sometimes communicate with crews and personnel on their local net by simplex, but not on their assigned tacs.

For example, es93546 post is great, lots of actual operational experience on the various frequencies and radio systems but operational experience doesn't account for why something was licensed where and for what reason. Your really only going to find out exactly why by talking to the techs that do the FCC licensing for the real reason as to why.

 

[zerg901]

flux4201 - if there is a RR member in the area they could confirm the channel. If other RR members spot these unknown channels in the FCC records, maybe they can confirm them across the state. Otherwise, I agree with you, its a onion wrapped in an enigma.