US Advanced-class sub-bands?

[mirrorshades]

Just wondering if anyone knows the reason(s) that the FCC still maintains the Advanced-class sub-bands in many of the HF bands? I understand the rationale of keeping the Advanced class ticket separate and distinct (either as a badge of honor for OTs, or just to cut down on paperwork)... but why not just state that the Advanced class licenses can go ahead and use the Extra sub-bands as well?

I get that doing so would effectively equivocate the Advanced and Extra class tickets anyway, but they can still be kept separate for lookups for people who find that kind of thing significant. More specifically, I guess I'm asking if there are any purely technical or legal reasons to keep the HF bands segregated out to a license class that hasn't been assigned in 15 years.

Thanks in advance for any information or opinions (I'll take either). Tried a forum history search but couldn't find anything topical.

 

[teufler]

I think the spectrum allocation system maintains a desire for amateurs to increase their radio knowdlege. If not, they could test for novice and get all the frequency privileges. There are parts of the world where , not only you have to test to increase your rights, but you have to have a year at the lower level of license class. A sort of time in grade sort of deal. Though I expect some day the advanced will just get thrown into the extra , the tests were about the same. Or since the people that got the advanced ans never went higher, finally died off or lost interest in the hobby.As long as there a quest5ions, on the exam that cater to extra class, and not advanced, there will still be a need to take one morte test.

 

[902]

Just wondering if anyone knows the reason(s) that the FCC still maintains the Advanced-class sub-bands in many of the HF bands? I understand the rationale of keeping the Advanced class ticket separate and distinct (either as a badge of honor for OTs, or just to cut down on paperwork)... but why not just state that the Advanced class licenses can go ahead and use the Extra sub-bands as well?

I get that doing so would effectively equivocate the Advanced and Extra class tickets anyway, but they can still be kept separate for lookups for people who find that kind of thing significant. More specifically, I guess I'm asking if there are any purely technical or legal reasons to keep the HF bands segregated out to a license class that hasn't been assigned in 15 years.

Thanks in advance for any information or opinions (I'll take either). Tried a forum history search but couldn't find anything topical.

Very simply, Advanced class amateurs are not Amateur Extra class.

It's a self-solving problem to the Commission. Eventually there will be attrition of the license class and the de facto subbands will effectively be Extra, General, and Technician (and Novice - also in attrition).

 

[prcguy]

I have an Advanced class license and think it would not be fair to the Extra class licensees to give me Extra class privileges and it would not be fair to me if I'm limited to General class privileges.

If the FCC waits long enough all the Advance class hams will be dead and they can simply eliminate the Advance class specific privileges like 902 mentioned.
prcguy

 

[Token]

The same question could be asked, why bother to carry band designations for Novice class, since no new Novice licenses have been issued in 15 year? Why not just make Novice and Tech allocations the same?

Because Novices did not test for and pass the Tech test, and Advanced did not test for and pass Extra. Since the "old" license classes still exist and are being allowed to be renewed you must also designate their allowed spectrum. Since you have to publish and designate it anyway, what does it matter what the privileges specifically are? The effort required is the same whether the privileges allow duplicate spectrum or not.

T!

 

[mirrorshades]

Thanks for the replies -- and yes, the very same question could be asked for the Novice sub-bands as well. Just wondering if there was an actual reason other than, "Why bother changing it?"... sounds like there might not be.

I understand incentive licensing (got into ham radio in the early 1990s when it was still in full swing), but these days I feel the real incentive step seems to be Tech -> General. Seems like extra overhead to me to keep the Advanced class privs on *some* bands, while on the "newer" ones (12, 17, 60) they're all rolled into one.

Doesn't matter to me much, just curious for the sake of being curious.

Thanks!

 

[n5ims]

One may point out that the FCC has granted an "upgrade by rule" that provided a subset of hams a no-test upgrade. This was an upgrade from the old Tech-Plus class of license to the General class. This upgrade only required the holders of that old Tech-Plus license to pay the testing fee and prove to the testing group that their license was of that class and was originally issued between appropriate dates. (Details are in this thread --> http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...operators/226857-technician-plus-general.html).

How this is different is that due to rule changes (basically the code requirement being lowered from 13 WPM to 5 WPM and later being removed entirely) the tests passed by the Tech-Plus were the same as the General class license. This "upgrade by rule" basically accepted the fact that those old Tech-Plus licenses (General class theory and 5 WPM code) had passed what was now the requirements for General (General class theory and 5WPM code or later no code). The dates of initial issuance of the Tech-Plus license was to make sure that it was indeed the General Class Theory, not the newer Technician Theory exam.

 

[AK9R]

FYI, there are still over 54,000 Advanced class amateur radio operators licensed by the FCC. They have not passed Element 4 which means they are not eligible for Extra class privileges. Therefore, these Advanced class licensees do not have access to frequencies allowed to Extra class licensees.

 

[n4yek]

This is the way I look at it, since I have been licensed the amateur radio license has changed. Novice, Tech-plus and Advance are both gone, a new HF band was created, technology has changed, and Morse code requirement has disappeared.

It will continue to change and I foresee licenses for ham bands one day will disappear, maybe not in the near future but one day.
Argue this all you want, but I remember when someone said to me Morse code would always be a requirement for ham radio....oh well.

 

[mirrorshades]

FYI, there are still over 54,000 Advanced class amateur radio operators licensed by the FCC. They have not passed Element 4 which means they are not eligible for Extra class privileges. Therefore, these Advanced class licensees do not have access to frequencies allowed to Extra class licensees.

Understood -- just wondering if there was some legal or technical reason (more science/technology or regulatory, instead of just paperwork/bureaucratic) for the FCC keeping it that way instead of giving a de facto "promotion" to Advanced class operators.

Just by way of example, I was thinking it might be something like, "The ITU requires operators on frequency XX.XXX Mhz to demonstrate proficiency with pulse-modulated widget frobnication," or, "Re-allocation of the spectrum across license classes may cause sub-harmonic inductive phase divergence through military and marine MF frequency bands for offshore facilities."

... or something to that effect. Ultimately it sounds like the FCC is just keeping it the way it is because there's no compelling reason to change and it will eventually cease to be an issue.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Just by way of example, I was thinking it might be something like, "The ITU requires operators on frequency XX.XXX Mhz to demonstrate proficiency with pulse-modulated widget frobnication,"

The reason is almost exactly that. Just substitute FCC for ITU and replace the technobabble with whatever is in Element 4 of the examinations.

 

[902]

Ultimately it sounds like the FCC is just keeping it the way it is because there's no compelling reason to change and it will eventually cease to be an issue.

That's pretty much it. In just about all it does on its own, the FCC only acts on compelling reason and has to feel (their word, not mine) "persuaded" to act.

The graduated exams we have in the amateur radio service use the previous material as a foundation and stepping stone to build on. It's all really a system of individual achievement. Being an Advanced class licensee is not a sloucher's accomplishment. Over the years, it was - and still is - considered a very respectable achievement.

If an Advanced operator wanted the additional spectrum and privileges, they only need to take the Amateur Extra class exam. I think a lot of them stay put because they're sufficiently (and justifiably) proud to be what they are.

I can say that I am an Extra and was an Advanced at one time (I never held a Technician class license, I jumped from Novice to General back in the day). I very rarely exercise my Extra class privileges. When I do, it's usually to get on 80 m phone, as it's a little quieter there.

Now, someone else mentioned Technician and Novice access to HF. My impression is that all Technician and Novice class licensees now are permitted on the respective subbands, and that Technician Plus was no longer valid.

 

[ko6jw_2]

The upgrade to General for certain Technician licensees had nothing to do with the Tech-Plus licenses. Technicians who were eligible for upgrades were licensed long ago when the only testing difference between Technician and General was code speed. The Tech-Plus license was a new test with 5 WPM code, but it was not the General test. Those licensees must still pass General and Extra.

In the old days Advanced was considered to be the hardest test because it had more theory and math requirements. Extra tests in those days related to satellite operations, VE testing etc. I guess the idea was that if you could do 20 WPM you got an easier written test. Now the type of questions seen on the Advanced test show up on the new Extra test.

I think the band allocations should stand as they are. The idea of incentive licensing has been around for a long time. If you have an Advanced license and want to use those slivers of the bands, get an Extra license. Without the code requirement its not a big problem.

 

[AK9R]

Some additional thoughts that may or may not have already been covered.

Advanced class licensees have not passed Element 4. If they did, they'd have Extra class privileges. You can't just eliminate the Advanced portion of the spectrum and give them the Extra privileges because the Advanced licensees haven't "earned" it. You can't just eliminate the Advanced portion of the spectrum and roll them back to the General privileges because the Advanced licensees did earn something beyond General.

Since the Advanced class licensees have all passed a 13 wpm code test, some of them are choosing to keep their Advanced license as proof that they have done something that the "no-code" Extras haven't done. Their pride in their accomplishment out-weighs the additional spectrum that an Extra class license would give them.

Looking at this a slightly different way, you also can't just eliminate the Advanced portion of the spectrum and extend General privileges to include the existing Advanced privileges because the Generals haven't "earned" it.

Bottom line is that there's no way to simply eliminate the Advanced portion of the spectrum without harming someone. Since their are still 54,000 Advanced licensees, the FCC has chosen to leave the situation as it is.

That said, there is talk of simplifying the license structure to just two or even one license class. If the FCC went to two classes, they would probably split along HF vs. VHF/UHF lines. There would be no General portion of the bands or Advanced portion or Extra portion. Everyone with an HF license would have full privileges. The devil, though, is in the details. How do you deal with the existing licensees without really screwing somebody? In addition to the 54,000 Advanced licensees, there are still 13,000 Novice licensees who have some HF privileges, but limited VHF/UHF privileges. And who knows how many of the 387,000 Technicians actually use their limited HF privileges. Can you just take away existing privileges by changing the license structure? Well, it's been done before.

Every time the FCC makes a big change in the licensing structure, someone has felt left out. When incentive licensing came in during the 1960's, a lot of existing license holders simply walked away from amateur radio because of the privileges they lost. When the codeless Technician license started in 1991, some hams simply retreated to HF. Later, when the code was eliminated all together, another, albeit smaller, upheaval happened and I think some hams gave up. Change is inevitable, though, and the FCC is dealing with tighter and tighter budgets. If they can prove to themselves that they could save money by eliminating amateur radio license classes, they will find a way to make it happen.

 

[ko6jw_2]

I had an Advanced class license for about 19 years before I got Extra. I had some friends who told me, "Don't ever upgrade, that way everyone will know you passed the code." It wasn't the small increase in HF privileges that made me upgrade. I wanted to become a VE. I was in Alaska and my ham friends up there shamed me into it. By the way, the Anchorage Amateur Radio Club is its own VEC and they don't charge for exams. Anyway, I studied for a few days and passed.

Some of my friends who had advanced took the Extra exam as soon as the code requirement was dropped. That exam was much easier. Now the Extra exam is more like the old Advanced test. Not hard, if you know theory, but not trivial either.

 

[N0IU]

Since the Advanced class licensees have all passed a 13 wpm code test, some of them are choosing to keep their Advanced license as proof that they have done something that the "no-code" Extras haven't done. Their pride in their accomplishment out-weighs the additional spectrum that an Extra class license would give them.

I had some friends who told me, "Don't ever upgrade, that way everyone will know you passed the code."

Having an Advanced Class license doesn't prove anything since it is entirely possible that they could received a medical waiver for the higher speed code tests. All it does prove is that they passed a 5 wpm code test (because there was no medical waiver for this) which pretty much anyone could pass with a week or two of practice.

And why on earth would I need to prove to anyone that I passed a code test? The only people that I had to prove that I could copy CW at 13 and 20 wpm were the 3 VEs who graded my test. After that, why would it matter?

I got into amateur radio for my own personal pleasure and satisfaction. not to live by someone else's standards. How shallow must your life be when it really matters to you what other people think of your accomplishments? And do you really think there are people out there who actually judge you by your class of license? If there are, then that is totally their problem, not mine!

This whole business about proving to someone else that you may have passed a 13 wpm proficiency test at some time in the past is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard in amateur radio. If you really want to prove to someone that you can copy Morse code, get on the air and actually engage in CW QSOs!

[/rant]

But if anyone really needs to know...

Yes, that was my callsign before I "earned" my Extra ticket later in 1995... when they still had Morse code proficiency tests!

 

[K7MEM]

Since the Advanced class licensees have all passed a 13 wpm code test, some of them are choosing to keep their Advanced license as proof that they have done something that the "no-code" Extras haven't done. Their pride in their accomplishment out-weighs the additional spectrum that an Extra class license would give them.

I never considered that a valid argument for not upgrading, once the code requirements were lifted. If you feel that you have to prove it, scan your Advanced class license and post it on your QRZ look up page. Then go and upgrade. Your FCC license page will also show that you upgraded from Advanced to Extra.

But that doesn't mean you have to upgrade. It may be that the licensee is content with his current license level. I was that way for many years with a Novice license. Between family and work, which required a good bit of traveling, I didn't have a lot of time for ham radio. The Novice class privileges, and my equipment, fit in quite nicely. Except for a Radio Shack HTX-100, all I had was CW gear. But then one day I decided I wanted it all. It was just something I had to prove to myself. The written tests were never an issue, but the Morse testing worried me. But once I found the learning method that worked for me, I passed the 13 WPM and 20 WPM tests in a 6 month period.

Now that I have a Extra, I still mostly hang around the Novice CW areas.

Effectively, I held a Advanced class license, but only for about two weeks. That's because I took the Advanced and Extra written tests at the same test session. That's possibly similar to taking the Extra written test today, except that there is no more 20 WPM Morse test. At the time, they handled upgrades separately. So first I received my Advanced license followed, in two weeks, by my Extra license. But none of that shows up on the FCC web page, so people are just going to have to take my word for it. All it shows is my renewal and my vanity call sign. My upgrade was strictly for personal reasons, but if I feel I need to prove anything to anyone, I can.