USFS LE activity in N CA

Status
Not open for further replies.

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
I'm starting this thread in hopes of getting some feedback from our monitors out there.
I have been monitoring the EDNF LE freq of 171.7875, and the Stan NF LE freq of 171.1375. Also 166.125
Nothing on the 171.1375, and just a couple of key-ups on 171.7875, no ID.

However this am, I heard something interesting on 166.125 It was Susanville, in the LNF, calling a unit
many, many times. They announced themselves as Susanville on R5 law on Tone 9.
Looking under the DB, it only shows up to Tone 8.
Does anyone know where Tone 9 is located? I was just using a simple ground plane antenna, and reception
was good copy at my ED County location. We are a good few miles away from there!
Thanks, Norm.
 

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
Thanks Paul, but I'm sure that's not what Susanville was using.
One other thing that I forgot to add was in the Stan NF, the LE types use the Admin net quite a bit,
but in the EDNF, sometimes.
 

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
Tues late afternoon, I finally heard traffic on 171.7875 It was an LE unit calling Camino.
Late last night (Thurs), I heard digital activity on 166.125 Anyone else catch this and knows
which agency?
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
Doesn't Yosemite handle LE dispatch for Lassen NF?

You've mixed up a National PARK with a National FOREST. Yosemite National Park dispatches the law enforcement function of Lassen National PARK. The Susanville Interagency Comm Center dispatches the administrative and fire management functions at Lassen National PARK. Susanville does all the dispatching for the Lassen National FOREST and for Cal Fire's Lassen-Modoc Unit.

Susanville was doing the law enforcement dispatching for Lassen National PARK for awhile, up to about 2002, but the protection rangers (LEO's) were not satisfied with the arrangement. Since the park has but one repeater net, multicasting on several linked repeaters each on a different output frequency, I'm not sure how each dispatcher puts up with hearing all the traffic on the net.

Yosemite has a fire, park, valley and law enforcement net. Given that Yosemite has the highest number of employees for any National Park in the agency and the incredible workload Yosemite Valley presents I can't imagine adding another net to their comm center.
 

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
A few ago, I heard a Sheriff's unit calling a Forest LE unit on 171.7875 (EDNF).
So, apparently, at least some of the Sheriff's units have that capability.
 

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
Just heard a Mendo NF LE unit calling on 171.7875 on T10, and then on T12.
Neither tones listed in WIKI. Anyone?
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
The Mendocino NF has 7 repeaters. Across the valley the Plumas has 14. Tone 10 on the Plumas is at "Big Bar Lookout" and Tone 12 is at "Pike County Peak Lookout." Big Bar Lookout is located above the Feather River close to the western boundary of the forest. It is east and a slightly northeast direction from the of town of Paradise. It appears it might provide coverage in the Sacramento Valley and perhaps the eastern side of the Mendocino NF.

Pike County Peak Lookout is also located near the western boundary of the Plumas NF, but south of Big Bar Lookout. It is about 1.5 miles southeast of the town of Challenge. It too may provide coverage to the east side of the Mendocino NF.

I have not spent a great deal of time in the Sacramento River Valley so these two locations may not provide the coverage I suggested. I spent several days on the Mendocino's east side on a temporary assignment years ago, but I don't remember the topography.

I don't know if the Mendocino can key up these repeaters from Willows. The Plumas uses a microwave system. I wonder if the dispatch center there can link into it? If it can, the question becomes does it? Another question would be: would the use of Plumas LE repeaters be a temporary situation meant to give the Mendocino some LE net coverage until it installs LE repeaters of its own? If this Plumas repeater scenario is reality then you should hear the dispatcher in Quincy communicating with Plumas LEO's.

This conjecture is based on an assumption that Plumas NF located LE repeaters would use the same tones as the repeaters at the same lookouts on the other Plumas nets. If the repeaters you heard are on the Mendocino it is possible they were not programmed with the same tones the other Mendocino nets. If that is the case then it would be difficult to determine what repeaters you are hearing.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
However this am, I heard something interesting on 166.125 It was Susanville, in the LNF, calling a unit many, many times. They announced themselves as Susanville on R5 law on Tone 9. Looking under the DB, it only shows up to Tone 8. Does anyone know where Tone 9 is located? I was just using a simple ground plane antenna, and reception was good copy at my ED County location. We are a good few miles away from there!
Thanks, Norm.

I didn't see this question when I read your post the first time. This observation leads me to lean in the direction that LE repeaters are being toned differently than the other repeaters on a forest. Since many forests are using the same frequencies I wonder it the repeaters are given tone numbers that follow a north to south order in the area a particular LE net covers. If this be the case then the lower numbers (1-8) would be north of here on the Klamath, Modoc and Shasta-Trinity National Forests.
 

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
This morning around 07:30, I hear a Mend NF unit calling on 171.7875 this time on T 11.
So there's another one.

Exsmokey, I'll PM you shortly.
Norm.
 

PaulNDaOC

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
598
I'm thinking that in centers that have Cal Fire dispatchers located will not have LEO dispatching because those dispatchers have not been background checked to the extent required to receive DOJ and NCIC returns. Just a thought?
 

KG7PBS

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2015
Messages
599
Location
Sacramento CA
so this morning around 8:30 am i heard a Ranger on the 171.7875 did not get the tone i was in CSQ mode. she was calling 10-8 Placerville and that's all i heard today, i will keep a eye out for more radio comms on it
 

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
I just heard a Mendo NF LE unit check in on 171.7875 on T11 a few ago.
They usually announce which tone they are on.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
Someone posted and/or made a submission that the Stanislaus NF law enforcement net is on 171.1375. This is Channel 30 on NIFC's National Air to Ground list. I wonder if someone misread their scanner display as 171.1375 looks quite similar to 171.7875. The .78 might look like .13 if a very quick look is all a listener was able to get of a scanner's display. Certainly an 8 can mistakenly seen as a 3. Many of the frequencies on the air to ground list are used in some areas of the country for forest, park, BLM district or National Wildlife Refuge repeater nets, so this reported use on the Stanislaus is not improbable.

Unfortunately, all this discussion about the various frequencies in use for law enforcement by the Forest Service will likely lead to encryption. There is a requirement that handhelds purchased by the 4 federal public land management agencies have digital capability and this requirement has been in place for several years. I heard a Forest Service law enforcement unit testing a digital radio at least 10 years ago. I was the impetus for my purchase of a PRO-96 in the fall of 2005. That would indicate that at least LE units had digital capable radios after new narrowband equipment was purchased before the narrowband mandate became effective.

The reports of this new LE repeater system are recent, indicating it has been recently installed. If that be true, I think both digital and encryption capability have been built in. The only reason I can think of for not using both of these from the get go, is that some mobiles and handhelds are in use that don't have these capabilities. This does not match up with my 2004 or 2005 observation of a LE officers test of a radio in the digital mode. Perhaps there aren't enough repeaters in place to provide adequate digital coverage. Some coverage was lost as a result of narrowbanding and additional losses are likely to occur if digital modulation is used.

The following is a detailed discussion of law enforcement dispatching by the USFS in Forest Service Region 5, which covers all of the National Forest land in California with the exception of the Humboldt-Toiyabe NF and Rogue River-Siskiyou NF land bordering the Klamath NF along the CA-OR boundary. I've provided this discussion as it is relevant to the future of the various law enforcement radio networks that are the subject of this thread. This is "optional reading."


I read a rather obscure document of notes by a committee that met several years ago to evaluate the consolidation of dispatch centers in Forest Service Regions 3 and 5. Region 3 covers Arizona and New Mexico and the discussion mentioned that having one dispatch center in each state was being evaluated. None of the dispatch centers in Region 3 are operated on a continuous, year long, 24 hour basis. All of this region's centers are interagency, with partnerships with the National Park Service (NPS), Bureau of Land Management (BLM), U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) and Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) participating in all or a portion of each comm center. Due to the jurisdictions on National Parks the NPS provides its own LE/admin dispatching and 24 hour coverage, sometimes linking smaller parks to the larger ones whose dispatching workload and staffing is greater. Fire and aviation dispatching for NPS units are functions handled by the interagency centers. No one from that region expressed the desire to do law enforcement dispatching. It was mentioned that the same viewpoint is shared in USFS Region 4 (Intermountain) and Region 1 (Northern). It was not mentioned if the same perspective is shared in USFS Region 6 (Oregon/Washington) and Region 2 (Colorado, South Dakota, Nebraska,Kansas and most of Wyoming), but if I had to guess it would be similar. Most of the comm centers in Region 8 (southern states) and Region 9 (northeastern states) are already consolidated, most on a entire state basis in cooperation with state natural resource agencies. Region 10 (Alaska) is about as different as is possible in one agency and I haven't picked up what their viewpoint may be.

Region 5 has characteristics other USFS regions don't share or don't have in the quantity that exists in California. These being: 25%+ of the recreation in the National Forest System of 9 regions, the heaviest fire workload (half the USFS fire management budget is spent here), a very high LE workload (Regions 8 & 9 also have significant LE workloads in spite of having a small amount of NF land), more human caused fires than the rest of the western regions and more intense resource conflicts and special land uses than the other regions. I worked in Regions 3 , 4 and 5 (in that order) and when I arrived in Region 5 I found many programs and issues I had not seen to that point of my career. As you might expect recreation, law enforcement, fire and civil liability is more intense than the other two regions of my career. There is a higher level of USFS response to "all risk incidents" in California as well. Traffic accidents, hazmat and medical calls elicit USFS responses here and especially on the 4 southern California National Forests as a result of 3 factors. First, and foremost, all risk incidents may involve civil (tort) liabilities. I think it safe to say that Region 5 has more claims and lawsuits for accidents and injuries than anywhere else in the Forest Service. Road, developed public facility and trail construction and maintenance as well as issuing permits for special land uses (resorts, dams/reservoirs, powerlines among a long list) result in lawsuits with engines and patrols often dispatched to evaluate potential liabilities where a USFS investigator might be necessary. Region 5 has, or did have while I was working, a system to develop a cadre of qualified accident on call and concurrent duty accident investigators on each National Forest. I was assigned to be in it. Second, a moral responsibility to provide public assistance when USFS resources are the "closest force." Lastly, as a mutual aid partner with fire and law enforcement departments. As a result a very proactive, experienced and well trained dispatch staff is needed for the "non-traditional" services the USFS provides in Region 5. The principle of "necessity is the mother of invention" is how this developed.

These divergent characteristics is likely the reason Region 5 has a different and completely opposite viewpoint, given that every USFS dispatch center was already providing law enforcement dispatching as well as the traditional administrative and fire dispatching. Several dispatch centers reported that they turned nighttime control of their nets over to a 24 hour center, such as the Angeles and federal interagency comm center in San Bernardino. When I first arrived on the Inyo NF in 1988 the nighttime coverage consisted of a tone alert system in the Bishop PD dispatch center, then a system where one dispatcher took a UHF radio home (it controlled the link to the Inyo's remote base), handing the net over to the Angeles and finally handing the nets over to the San Bernardino at night. I'm not sure if there are any such centers in North Ops.

In the committee's notes there was some discussion of developing a couple of 24 hour law enforcement comm centers, one in the north and one in the south. Presumably these centers would only provide LE dispatch, however, the San Bernardino center is handling LE dispatching for the San Bernardino NF; three NPS units, Joshua Tree, Mojave and Death Valley; and the BLM's California Desert District as well as the traditional services for each. It would benefit the fire and admin functions on units that presently don't have 24 hour dispatching to have two centers in the state that could. It would require some work to tie the nets of each park, forest, district and refuge that are partners in existing centers into those centers as well as tying in the new USFS law enforcement nets as well. The National Park Service and California State Parks have formed a partnership and now have a unit called "Redwood National and State Parks". NPS protection rangers use the state's VHF radio net for its North Coast Redwoods District.

The future of the Region 5 law enforcement nets is subject to speculation and good listening and reporting are needed.

Lastly, don't forget the BLM California State Office, all three districts (Northern California, Central California and California Desert) are building a statewide LE net of their own. The frequency of that net is 166.7500. I don't have any information on it other than I think the California Desert District probably has the best coverage and new repeaters in the other districts are being installed.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
Tues late afternoon, I finally heard traffic on 171.7875 It was an LE unit calling Camino.
Late last night (Thurs), I heard digital activity on 166.125 Anyone else catch this and knows
which agency?

A 3 Edward xx unit would be from the Eldorado NF. A 19 Edward xx unit would be from the Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit. If you heard an identifier it would help determine the location. I think the 171 frequency is the Eldorado's and the 166 frequency is the Basin's.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
I'm thinking that in centers that have Cal Fire dispatchers located will not have LEO dispatching because those dispatchers have not been background checked to the extent required to receive DOJ and NCIC returns. Just a thought?

Cal Fire may have law enforcement dispatching as think they have a few arson investigators (LEO's) among their fire prevention staffs at local unit headquarters. The agency also has the State Fire Marshall office under its umbrella. I think the fire marshall staff use the 800 MHz CA Multiple Agency Radio System (CMARS) as Cal Fire has a set of CTCSS tones they use to separate their reception from the other CMARS agencies. There might be a single dispatch center of some kind where all the LEO/fire marshall folks call in for NCIC type information.

ECC's where the Forest Service and Cal Fire share the facility have USFS dispatchers with the proper certifications to use CLETS and NCIC computers. When I took my training to run plates and driver's licenses it was conducted by a USFS dispatcher from the Grass Valley ECC. If access to those systems is needed after USFS dispatchers have gone off duty then either Cal Fire has someone qualified or the officer uses a local sheriff's department net. I don't think Cal Fire has certified people to handle such requests.

As far as I know Cal Fire dispatchers don't answer USFS radios. There is a distinction between co-located and interagency comm centers. The interagency centers have people who work the radio systems of all the agencies the center provides service for. The co-located centers have people from each agency, who only provide services for their own agencies. I'm not aware of any of the Cal Fire/USFS comm centers that are interagency. I'm thinking of Fortuna, Yreka, Redding, Susanville, Grass Valley,Camino, Fresno, and Monte Vista when I say this. I don't think the Los Padres NF and Cal Fire share a center anymore. I toured their former shared center and the one in Susanville and the difference between the two types of centers was explained to me. In spite of having the same name the USFS/NPS/BLM/USFWS/BIA center called "San Bernardino" is not co-located with Cal Fire's San Bernardino ECC.
 
Last edited:

Norman

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
327
Location
N CA
I used to hear encryption regularly on the old freq of 166.125 years ago. Not anymore.
 

kma371

QRT
Joined
Feb 20, 2001
Messages
6,204
Someone posted and/or made a submission that the Stanislaus NF law enforcement net is on 171.1375. This is Channel 30 on NIFC's National Air to Ground list. I wonder if someone misread their scanner display as 171.1375 looks quite similar to 171.7875. The .78 might look like .13 if a very quick look is all a listener was able to get of a scanner's display. Certainly an 8 can mistakenly seen as a 3. Many of the frequencies on the air to ground list are used in some areas of the country for forest, park, BLM district or National Wildlife Refuge repeater nets, so this reported use on the Stanislaus is not improbable.

I'm 99 % sure that is what I saw on the display. I had it stopped for several minutes while I copied the traffic. However your theory of a 7 being misread as a 1 is possible I guess (the other 1%.) I'll leave it in tomorrow and see if I can catch any further traffic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top