I'm traveling so cannot do any experimenting at the moment (I'm visiting your tax dollars). IF I'm remembering correctly in the past when entering a simplex DMR frequency the TS field would gray out. I was working on a plug yesterday and noticed that the TS field was NOT grayed out on simplex DMR channels and could be set (TS1, TS2, Auto). Even before this while doing SFR experiments I noticed different behavior depending on how the "grayed out" TS was set. I would set it in duplex mode and then change frequency to simplex which would keep my setting even though it was now grayed out. What I wonder now is if there is a NON DCDM capability at all? When fields grayed out before it was implied. Maybe Auto TS accomplishes this for all practical purposes. Am I right with assuming when using a normal repeater that it responds (handshake) to subscriber with a MASTER clock sync? With moto radios you could select whether radio could be slave, master, or eligible for DCDM. I don't think I've seen that with other brand subscribers.
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VP8000 DCDM?
- Thread starter otobmark
- Start date
Yes, under normal repeater operation, the handshake between the repeater and radio allows it to set the correct timeslot. Before DCDM, under simplex operation, there is no "master clock" for a handshake, so every transmission was treated as either slot. DCDM allows one radio to be the master clock and create a handshake thus allowing simplex communications to decipher between slots.
I just looked under Armada help, and DCDM does not exist in the 1.42.23 help file. I'm guessing since DMR in the VP8000 is so rudimentary, DCDM is not included, and thus compatibility across the board is kept.
Have you used it with a simplex hotspot? The hotspots don't work with DCDM enabled, that would be the quickest test.
I just looked under Armada help, and DCDM does not exist in the 1.42.23 help file. I'm guessing since DMR in the VP8000 is so rudimentary, DCDM is not included, and thus compatibility across the board is kept.
Have you used it with a simplex hotspot? The hotspots don't work with DCDM enabled, that would be the quickest test.
My understanding as well in the past. What's new is Armada is now letting me actually set TS parameters on simplex instead of it being grayed out. I guess when I get home I'll try simplex with my other radios (Kenwood, Motorola, hytera, alinco, anytone) and see how they react. I only have a Mac with me so I cannot really shoot my VP (well I could until my Phone quit going into hotspot mode--tethering not allowed all of a sudden). If you've seen some of my other posts I'm pursuing SFR solution for a local org. Hytera was a likely SFR candidate but since all the Motorola lawsuit back and forth it has become complicated/expensive. I don't think the anytone will have the filtering or processing speed to be an efficient good range solution. Company out of AU sounds best (FDP Radio) but no US dealers. Plan is to use NX1300 series subscriber radios.
What in the world is DCDM? Do you mean dual-slot direct mode (DSDM)? Not available on EFJ radios just yet as far as I can see.
Auto-slot is just that-it allows the repeater to assign a slot based on usage, which is why HYT called it "pseudo-trunk".
Obviously, that doesn't get used on simplex.
Auto-slot is just that-it allows the repeater to assign a slot based on usage, which is why HYT called it "pseudo-trunk".
Obviously, that doesn't get used on simplex.
Doh! I'm not sure why my brain didn't parse that it was wrong. DSDM is not in Armada help either.
My VP8000 isn't in yet, so I can't speak to real world testing, but I suspect you are correct, its not implemented in EFJ's "first run" at DMR.
If you CAN set a TS on simplex then it is DSDM/DCDM by definition unless armada has a bug. Before I couldn’t set TS on simplex and now I can. As to Auto on simplex receive why not? If incoming signal has clock (DSDM does) then it has all it needs to define TS’s. Now on VP initiated simplex if clock is missing it may be a problem.
It's not a bug in Armada, from the help file.
"Note: The radio does not support Slot 2 timing unless there is a repeater involved. If a radio receives a call from another radio in Direct Mode (no repeater as a go-between) it always receives on Slot 1, regardless of the slot."
Yes, it would be better if they had disabled/grayed out the time slot selector until EFJ enables DSDM, I can see where it could cause confusion.
Jim
Testing indicates VP8000 non DSDM as suspected but with a few oddities.
-VP8000 will receive a DSDM transmissions BUT, on the opposite TS except that if VP is in AUTO TS it will NOT receive any DSDM signal. The VP CANNOT talk back to the DSDM radio, only receive.
-No matter TS or AUTO selected by VP8000 only radios NOT in DSDM can receive signal.
The VP8000 apparently is not TX any timing reference for other receivers to lock to. The oddity is it can only receive DSDM signals set for opposite TS, indicating some decode of incoming timing reference. Interesting that the TS setting would have any effect on a NON DSDM simplex channel at all.
-VP8000 will receive a DSDM transmissions BUT, on the opposite TS except that if VP is in AUTO TS it will NOT receive any DSDM signal. The VP CANNOT talk back to the DSDM radio, only receive.
-No matter TS or AUTO selected by VP8000 only radios NOT in DSDM can receive signal.
The VP8000 apparently is not TX any timing reference for other receivers to lock to. The oddity is it can only receive DSDM signals set for opposite TS, indicating some decode of incoming timing reference. Interesting that the TS setting would have any effect on a NON DSDM simplex channel at all.
DSDM is a Kenwood option for simplex operation. Simplex can be either slot 1, slot 2, or DSDM. So no, it is *not* DSDM "by definition." All it does is allow both slots to be used at the same time on simplex. Normally It's one or the other.
So yes, DSDM has to be used on all radios on simplex or none of them. You can't mix.
EFJ hasn't implemented it yet. Motorola does have something similar, and if both sets of radios are programmed just right, it can be made to work, but it's a bit difficult. There's a few fields in the Motorola that are kinda buried. I haven't seen anyone else implement it.
So yes, DSDM has to be used on all radios on simplex or none of them. You can't mix.
EFJ hasn't implemented it yet. Motorola does have something similar, and if both sets of radios are programmed just right, it can be made to work, but it's a bit difficult. There's a few fields in the Motorola that are kinda buried. I haven't seen anyone else implement it.
lucasec
Member
Some Chinese radios (Anytone 878) seem to implement it, and at least from my basic tests with only two radios they do interoperate.
There are a few differences, e.g. on my Kenwood, a non-DSDM channel will never receive from a transmitter transmitting in DSDM and vice-versa. The Anytone in non-DSDM will receive a DSDM transmission on either slot, but in DSDM mode it will only receive DSDM transmissions on the correct slot.
There are a few differences, e.g. on my Kenwood, a non-DSDM channel will never receive from a transmitter transmitting in DSDM and vice-versa. The Anytone in non-DSDM will receive a DSDM transmission on either slot, but in DSDM mode it will only receive DSDM transmissions on the correct slot.
Those promiscuous chinese! See if your non-DSDM channel Kenwood will open on an Anytone DSDM channel transmission ——
lucasec
Member
sigh, you are right. non-DSDM will open a DSDM channel on the Anytone programmed with either slot.
At least if both are on DSDM, they only open on the correct slot.
That is my finding. The Chinese pretty much do what they want and without regard to standards or reliability. Ham radio mentality in Part 90 world..
Last night during state of the union address I was playing with my Alinco DMR HT (MD5), Kenwood NX5300 and VP8000. As in my previous post, The VP8000 does not have MSDM option but does exhibit a strange behavior unique to it: It receives MSDM traffic on the opposite TS. Even though the VP does‘t do MSDM it will still let you set a TS (not grayed out). Other radios with MSDM turned on will ignore the VP transmission treating it as non DSDM which of course it is. However the VP will receive MSDM traffic but only if the VP has an opposite TS selected! So while not being a MSDM radio it still reacts to which TS is set on radio while receiving. I suspect this is unintended by EFJ resulting from less than perfect code. If I put the VP in Auto Slot it will NOT receive MSDM traffic sent on either slot. The VP with auto slot set transmits as a non dsdm should, being ignored by MSDM radios. When VP is paired with other radios not running MSDM it behaves as expected. The only use for the odd behavior is that I can monitor MSDM signals with VP, albeit on opposite TS. I can’t talk back.
Now to the MD5 whose CPS looks nearly identical to anyone (same manufacturer?) and has multiple settings useable in simplex.
Modes:
—Simplex TDMA = DSDM working as expected only on TS set.
—Through Mode = Always transmits non DSDM but will receive anything (TS 1, 2 & non DSDM).
— TDMA Adaptive Mode = It will receive anything and Talk Back in same format (MSDM & TS used or non MSDM) it previously received. If MD5 initiates TX it does so in nonDSDM so there is a timer somewhere I guess.
Pretty interesting. In adaptive mode it can receive qualified traffic on either TS and respond on that same TS. The MD5 doesn’t Auto Select in the sense of finding a free TS to initiate a call but can move to and operate on whichever TS is carrying qualified traffic. All in simplex mode…
Stands to reason that it’s possible to create a feature that adds in auto select for initiating a call. All of this appeals to experimental users and for creating agnostic SFR solutions for SU radios that can’t do split TS’s . For normal simplex and serious work I‘m not sold on MSDM because there is more to fail (timing), not a DMR standard and possible cross brand issues.
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headsense
Member - Learner Driver
Not sure how I stumbled on this particular thread but saw your reference to FDP radio, thought I’d let you know it’s just some badge engineering and obviously local type compliances certification, the radio in question is manufactured by BFDX or Belfone as the often go by. The specific model is BF-TM8250R which has the built In SFR function. It does not include GPS in this configuration but does include encryption in built and pass through. Physically the unit is dimensionally same as my Hytera MD-782’s.
Ive purchased these units directly from a factory appointed distributor in China they were very fast and responsive in English and the radios arrive in factory packaging, factory warranty card and the internal data implies 2024 build age. Pricing was around USD $650.00 per unit. Support is there also for programming hardware and software.
The radio and software are in English and Chinese and to date I’ve found very few quirks with that. The software does have an individual per channel setting related to compatibility with either Hytera or Motorola subscriber units.
I currently use the repeater with a half dozen Hytera PD-662 portables and MD-782 mobiles and all is well. I’ll shortly introduce some Motorola XPR7550 or DP4800 as I know them, into the subscriber mix.
The only minor thing that comes to mind ive found so far is subscriber to subscriber short messaging through the SFR unit is not possible, you need to be in range for direct subscriber - subscriber contact to get through. I‘m using ARC4 encryption on the repeater and the individual subscribers and thats all working nicely.
In researching my initial purchase I found that Retevis are selling the RT74 SFR DMR desktop repeater and this is also badge engineering back to ABELL Commuincations in China where it is known as the R-50. Abel manufacture a full professional DMR product line rebadged and sold in at least Asia and Europe I’ve seen.
Hope that’s of interest to someone and apologies not intending to divert the OP,s thread and will leave it at that. I’ll keep reading about your trials and tribulations with interest.
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Your comments are very informative for me. I definitely want to hear more about how effective SFR has been for you. In particular how you make it work and settings on subscriber (HT’s). I will be very interested in how well you can use non Hytera (Motorola) radios on the system. none of the subscriber radios I have allow slot scan or split TS’s especially on simplex. Local rescue group used Hytera for SFR and kenwood subscribers but said only worked with subscribers set for NON MSDM. Confusing??
