Warren & Watchung Police Dispatch

[FT752]

Does anyone know if Warren and/or Watchung Police multicast or parrot on a Somerset County TRS Police Region? I heard a Warren officer calling out a MV stop and another radio in the background was repeating back what they said in the same fashion as being next to a P25 user. If it were another analog radio, they would be met with feedback. I also make this inquiry as I have heard SCC make contact with Watchung on Public Safety regarding receipt of an emergency activation. Considering that both self-dispatch on frequencies licensed by their municipality, the county would not be aware of the activity unless relayed by their respective dispatchers on Public Safety. Is there more than meets the eye?

 

[rr60]

Does anyone know if Warren and/or Watchung Police multicast or parrot on a Somerset County TRS Police Region? I heard a Warren officer calling out a MV stop and another radio in the background was repeating back what they said in the same fashion as being next to a P25 user. If it were another analog radio, they would be met with feedback. I also make this inquiry as I have heard SCC make contact with Watchung on Public Safety regarding receipt of an emergency activation. Considering that both self-dispatch on frequencies licensed by their municipality, the county would not be aware of the activity unless relayed by their respective dispatchers on Public Safety. Is there more than meets the eye?

I will try and answer as eloquently as you replied to my Station 95 question.

I spend a fair amount of time in this RF neighborhood. MultiIcast on either 500/700 P25 system, unlikely as I have seen nor heard evidence of this. I am sure @richee2000 would have chimed in.

On RF feedback. Things have changed. Latency or the amount of time processing signal impacts feedback. Significant changes have been made in Warren that I suspect have reduced that processing time.

SCC monitoring Watchung PD conventional. I have always thought possible, however I have not seen nor heard direct evidence of same, even at the console level.

Lastly some area news. Middlesex reportedly has distributed Unication G4’s to its members, not G5. Interesting to note if accurate that would seem to nix rumors of an appearance on Somerset TRS in one form or another. @mdsxfire

 

[richee2000]

rr60 is correct. I live at the Bernards/Warren border. There is no Somerset Co TRS MultiIcast of Warren or Watchung PD on either 500/700 P25 system. Not sure what you are hearing, FT752.

 

[FT752]

I will try and answer as eloquently as you replied to my Station 95 question.

I spend a fair amount of time in this RF neighborhood. MultiIcast on either 500/700 P25 system, unlikely as I have seen nor heard evidence of this. I am sure @richee2000 would have chimed in.

On RF feedback. Things have changed. Latency or the amount of time processing signal impacts feedback. Significant changes have been made in Warren that I suspect have reduced that processing time.

SCC monitoring Watchung PD conventional. I have always thought possible, however I have not seen nor heard direct evidence of same, even at the console level.

Lastly some area news. Middlesex reportedly has distributed Unication G4’s to its members, not G5. Interesting to note if accurate that would seem to nix rumors of an appearance on Somerset TRS in one form or another. @mdsxfire

I appreciate that. I just happened to have raw intel on 95EMS from being part of the network, which is why I had a carefully crafted response. I make an effort to address each point brought forward, which is exactly what you afforded to me.

It would seem bizarre to make an inquisition that multicasting is taking place to the TRS on either side. However, it would not be to find one or more P25 radios in their units, as Bound Brook did for a couple of years before taking the plunge to 700 on Police Region 2. Perhaps an intermediate move from analog to P25 locally or on the outstanding Police Regions- which you and richee2000 have since debunked.

Warren's infrastructure is quite agile, which could contribute to the excellent quality mimicking P25 or analog SmartZone latency behavior. This may have been a one-off situation- but I also have heard instances of heavy feedback when things get heated and the officers are all in close proximity working together, which the significant improvements would curb.

Considering that police and EMS for both municipalities are hitting the brink of usage (as in, reaching their respective dispatchers) from the Bridgewater and Somerville area, it'd be highly unlikely SCC would succeed without being injected through P25 or an IP link to the base of the system. All in all, that defeats the purpose of being self-dispatched. The only other rationale I could think of with SCC being aware of an emergency activation specific to a Warren or Watchung unit would be if they stumbled onto a TRS TG like Countywide PD since there's no parameters to their MDC IDs.

Interesting news item too. Perhaps that will be speculated further by mdsxfire or yourself at a later time.

 

[richee2000]

On the same basic subject, I am wondering when the only three police departments in Somerset county that are on their own frequencies will join the Somerset county trs p25 public safety system.

Warren watchung and bernardsville.

I understand bernardsville does not have enough infrastructure on this system to accommodate handhelds within buildings throughout the township so that's why they remain on their antiquated low band repeater.

Warren township is very large and hilly and presents unique RF problems within buildings and on either side of the watchung mountains. Likewise I don't think Somerset county has enough infrastructure in place to accommodate Warren PD throughout the township on portables inside buildings. Their UHF repeater system with multiple receivers allows good coverage throughout the town.

Watchung, just not sure. Their UHF Repeater seems to cover the town .

Any thoughts or data on this?

 

[FT752]

On the same basic subject, I am wondering when the only three police departments in Somerset county that are on their own frequencies will join the Somerset county trs p25 public safety system.

Warren watchung and bernardsville.

I understand bernardsville does not have enough infrastructure on this system to accommodate handhelds within buildings throughout the township so that's why they remain on their antiquated low band repeater.

Warren township is very large and hilly and presents unique RF problems within buildings and on either side of the watchung mountains. Likewise I don't think Somerset county has enough infrastructure in place to accommodate Warren PD throughout the township on portables inside buildings. Their UHF repeater system with multiple receivers allows good coverage throughout the town.

Watchung, just not sure.

Any thoughts or data on this?

See, Bernardsville throws me for a whirl. The officers carry APX portables but do not operate on the TRS or are licensed for anything in UHF or 700. Their lowband license was just renewed, and their new 2020 Explorer and other modern patrol units were outfitted with lowband antennas. Even if there's an x-band VRS or other option in play, I do not see how the APX radios are going to be best used for patrol. If North Plainfield isn't on NJICS, which many speculated and notated, no way Bernardsville is either. Just like every other police department on 700, they do not have interop with their other emergency services disciplines. So, what gives?

I agree that Somerset does not have the infrastructure to reliably do so in their area. But I am not sure if either police department would want to move up. If so, would they combine dispatch capabilities, or stay independent of each other? If Watchung and Warren FD could, they'd be on the TRS full time. I don't think they're still on the Watchung FD and Warren FD frequency for simplicity; but for necessity, since there's no guarantee in mission-critical performance. I should also mention what the director for SCC has said, which is that the Somerset County 500 TRS is designed for street coverage. Ideally, in-building should be done off the TRS on the PS TACs or other locale means.

Bound Brook had the same issue with RF and terrain, which is what I think pushed them to going to the TRS on top of IO with South Bound Brook and Bridgewater. Several times they'd get calls literally over the border that plot in Bridgewater toward 22, and they couldn't even get out on the air. Had to resort back to landlining headquarters. They miraculously had no issues going over to 700, meanwhile FD is in the communication death valley downtown.

 

[richee2000]

If the Somerset county p25 trunk radio system is only designed for "on Street coverage", this baffles me, because every Police department has the necessity of in building portable coverage. That would be a public safety nightmare and police officer safety issue to have no coverage going into residences in their localities with no communications capabilities back to headquarters. I monitor Somerset county on a regular basis and it would appear that most municipalities have good in building coverage on their portables, in most cases.

 

[FT752]

If the Somerset county p25 trunk radio system is only designed for "on Street coverage", this baffles me, because every Police department has the necessity of in building portable coverage. That would be a public safety nightmare and police officer safety issue to have no coverage going into residences in their localities with no communications capabilities back to headquarters. I monitor Somerset county on a regular basis and it would appear that most municipalities have good in building coverage on their portables, in most cases.

This was stated for 500. Because law enforcement uses 700 and need to be able to communicate on the spot, they get better propagation characteristics that allow them to hit from the buildings over Fire/EMS. Definitely, a public safety nightmare and officer safety issue if police could not get around. Thus, the mainly good in-building coverage. What should be noted is that your single-family residences usually aren't the problem locations until you hit the basement. Otherwise, you'll see the discrepancies in larger buildings, such as the Meridia in Bound Brook or another building in a municipality of your choice.

 

[rr60]

See, Bernardsville throws me for a whirl. The officers carry APX portables but do not operate on the TRS or are licensed for anything in UHF or 700. Their lowband license was just renewed, and their new 2020 Explorer and other modern patrol units were outfitted with lowband antennas. Even if there's an x-band VRS or other option in play, I do not see how the APX radios are going to be best used for patrol. If North Plainfield isn't on NJICS, which many speculated and notated, no way Bernardsville is either. Just like every other police department on 700, they do not have interop with their other emergency services disciplines. So, what gives?

I agree that Somerset does not have the infrastructure to reliably do so in their area. But I am not sure if either police department would want to move up. If so, would they combine dispatch capabilities, or stay independent of each other? If Watchung and Warren FD could, they'd be on the TRS full time. I don't think they're still on the Watchung FD and Warren FD frequency for simplicity; but for necessity, since there's no guarantee in mission-critical performance. I should also mention what the director for SCC has said, which is that the Somerset County 500 TRS is designed for street coverage. Ideally, in-building should be done off the TRS on the PS TACs or other locale means.

Bound Brook had the same issue with RF and terrain, which is what I think pushed them to going to the TRS on top of IO with South Bound Brook and Bridgewater. Several times they'd get calls literally over the border that plot in Bridgewater toward 22, and they couldn't even get out on the air. Had to resort back to landlining headquarters. They miraculously had no issues going over to 700, meanwhile FD is in the communication death valley downtown.

Bernardsville HQ and APX all have TRS plan and the two TG’s allocated to them. From time to time these TG’s are used for details. They are licensed for several UHF simplex that are used for VRS. My belief is they are holding out for TRS infrastructure buildout. It is on paper for about a total to 3-5 sites in the area. Local opposition at the landfill slowed things down.

Warren and Watchung services have a combined total of about 15, yes 15 remote
receiver sites. The terrain challenges are significant. The TRS being single site for these two communities can’t mirror the conventional coverage in any way. The Director statement on in building is true (I did see that) but sadly myopic. Enough said.Going to stay off that soapbox.

On Bound Brook. Miller Lane is such an odd location. It is tucked into the ridge, almost hidden. I am surprised both NJICS AND Somerset bother with that location when Pillar of Fire is nearby.

 

[GTR8000]

The vast majority of public safety trunked systems are engineered to meet "95% portable radio on-the-hip on-the-street" coverage. It's more or less the industry standard. That does not mean that there is no in-building coverage, or that certain buildings can't be singled out to ensure they have a certain level of coverage, but to guarantee in-building coverage system-wide would be cost prohibitive.

 

[rr60]

The vast majority of public safety trunked systems are engineered to meet "95% portable radio on-the-hip on-the-street" coverage. It's more or less the industry standard. That does not mean that there is no in-building coverage, or that certain buildings can't be singled out to ensure they have a certain level of coverage, but to guarantee in-building coverage system-wide would be cost prohibitive.

I get that. Obvious really. Majority of systems are spec’d in street. However nothing stays the same except…. That is why Somerset accepted as tested, and has added sites since system inception. We all know radio is political. Always has been always will be.

Somerset added Harrison Towers after system acceptance in Franklin for example. I believe that site has two “cell’s”.

Up North County has many 700 sites on paper, some planned including these.

East County where this thread began which has plenty of topo issues and no changes heard nor seen. Hmmmm.

Bernardsville	Flintlock Court
Bernardsville	Mountain Top Rd
Bernardsville	Pill Hill Rd
Bernardsville	Washington Corner Rd

Bedminster

School House Lane

 

[GTR8000]

It's pretty common for sites/subsites to be added after the fact, that has been going on for decades. It's not always political, however. Two subsites of a system in the NYC area were added after the fact because the bulldog system admin was not personally satisfied with coverage, and held the vendor's feet to the fire. It's not always a cynical motivation that gets the right thing done.

As for in-building coverage, that's normally what a BDA or DAS is for if the need is that critical where a full site/subsite is not otherwise justified.

 

[FT752]

Following up on Warren, I am hearing 5-cars being used today instead of the 3-car series; for example, 575. Considering neither is relevant to their municipal ID, any intel on this change?

 

[mdsxfire]

Lastly some area news. Middlesex reportedly has distributed Unication G4’s to its members, not G5. Interesting to note if accurate that would seem to nix rumors of an appearance on Somerset TRS in one form or another. @mdsxfire

if u a referencing the municipality we gave out G5 pagers about 3 years ago to the majority of our responders, the second band however is VHF for dispatching backup in case of any issues with the county TRS, 3 years going we have never had to fall back on the VHF.

 

[rr60]

Following up on Warren, I am hearing 5-cars being used today instead of the 3-car series; for example, 575. Considering neither is relevant to their municipal ID, any intel on this change?

@FT752 5XX unit ID’s are side job UID’s. Often given is car ID, mileage and maybe location of the job.

 

[FT752]

@FT752 5XX unit ID’s are side job UID’s. Often given is car ID, mileage and maybe location of the job.

Ah okay, that makes a lot more sense. I have not heard their sign-on process, but hearing that they are headed to a fixed post would have been a giveaway. There were a handful of times when they'd be on calls for service, which occurred more frequently and diversely on the date of inquiry; otherwise, utility-related matters were their topic of discussion. An interesting find is that the regular patrol division units have PTT ID only incorporating the municipality code. Meanwhile, the 5XX are post-ID which would coincide with their UID for the assignment.

Based on your knowledge, do you know anything about a 2-digit PTT ID on Warren? Seen an ID in the 80-series poke in weekly.

 

[rr60]

I have no knowledge on two digit. On my radios I have not enabled MDC decode.

Of course I hear it. Often it is used to identify a unit by using pre and post MDC.

Pre MDC could identify mobiles and post MDC to identify a portable or even perhaps vice versa.

MDC does not change by assignment as the radio would need to be programmed.

 

[FT752]

I have no knowledge on two digit. On my radios I have not enabled MDC decode.

Of course I hear it. Often it is used to identify a unit by using pre and post MDC.

Pre MDC could identify mobiles and post MDC to identify a portable or even perhaps vice versa.

MDC does not change by assignment as the radio would need to be programmed.

I have MDC decode enabled on my radios, which is why I could pinpoint IDs. Obviously, I have better luck with getting a clean decode of post MDC, so I tend to pay more attention to those transmission patterns.

Of course, the pre and post are in use to identify a unit, specifically the mobiles being that they are fixed to a car vs having a pool of portables that change hands each shift. Perhaps the 5XX portables see the light of day-to-day patrol with the officers; however, the appearances of these radios in my study of their operations were paired with the side job UID. In the original inquiry, one of the MDC IDs returned 575, but not before the officer identified themselves as UID 575. Otherwise, RIDs for Warren Police units are 20XX. Another thought is that they do have APX radios in the wild, being that they have to access Countywide PD on 700. Generally, the 5XX units are much clearer in both audio and MDC emission quality than the 20XX units.