Washington County Public Safety - new trunked (YW) licenses

mtindor

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sonm10

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Washington County Public Safety
WRXT964 (YW)
WRXT965 (YW)
WRXT973 (YW)
WRXT983 (YW)
WRXT984 (YW)
WRXV275 (YW)

Three simulcast one-freq P25 Phase II cells (with none of the locations overlapping)

154.115 : 10 sites - (red on the map)
155.0625 9 sites - (blue on the map)
154.2875 10 sites - (green on the map)

Map: Washington Co PA Public Safety - Google My Maps

View attachment 144693

Discuss.
Out of state, but curious, how can a single frequency be phase II? I thought phase II could only be trunking?
 

mtindor

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Out of state, but curious, how can a single frequency be phase II? I thought phase II could only be trunking?

There are single-freq trunked sites. First Energy has/had a couple at least. The CC would be active and then interrupted with voice calls. But if it's a Phase II TDMA control channel, then it has two slots. Or maybe it is conventional P25 simulcast (probably) and I got the emissions wrong.

Probably the lattermost option. Who knows - @GTR8000 does. Interesting though that they are switching to P25 for some service (police maybe).
 

IStebleton

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GTR8000

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The emissions on those licenses don't look right. They have subscriber uplink emissions (H-CPM) licensed for base station repeaters.

Generally speaking, you can't have a single frequency trunked simulcast cell. There are exceptions, such as the VoC (Voice over Control) that Harris offers (as Mike stated, the control channel drops out while the frequency acts as a traffic channel for the duration of the conversation), however those are horribly inefficient and would be absolutely awful for a wide area simulcast cell. Normally VoC is used sparingly as a single small footprint fill-in site where coverage is needed but a full subsite is not required or desired.

Harris offers TDMA control channels, where the second slot could be used for traffic without losing control signaling. I don't know if Tait is offering that now as well, however since Harris offers Tait TB9400 repeaters rebranded as L3Harris, they obviously have a working relationship and share some technology.

Or the more likely guess is that those YW licenses are only painting part of the picture, and the county is also licensing CP or PC frequencies in addition to the traditional YW frequencies at each site. Or they are still looking for additional frequencies and will apply for more in the future.
 

mtindor

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The emissions on those licenses don't look right. They have subscriber uplink emissions (H-CPM) licensed for base station repeaters.

Generally speaking, you can't have a single frequency trunked simulcast cell. There are exceptions, such as the VoC (Voice over Control) that Harris offers (as Mike stated, the control channel drops out while the frequency acts as a traffic channel for the duration of the conversation), however those are horribly inefficient and would be absolutely awful for a wide area simulcast cell. Normally VoC is used sparingly as a single small footprint fill-in site where coverage is needed but a full subsite is not required or desired.

Harris offers TDMA control channels, where the second slot could be used for traffic without losing control signaling. I don't know if Tait is offering that now as well, however since Harris offers Tait TB9400 repeaters rebranded as L3Harris, they obviously have a working relationship and share some technology.

Or the more likely guess is that those YW licenses are only painting part of the picture, and the county is also licensing CP or PC frequencies in addition to the traditional YW frequencies at each site. Or they are still looking for additional frequencies and will apply for more in the future.

I wonder what 22.5 million gets ya, in Tait dollars. IF what is currently on the licenses depicts three simulcasts, then I can't imagine it being three simulcast multi-channel setups - but I guess it could be with Phase II and maybe 2-3 channels total. Not sure how far one can go with 22.5 million. IF the freqs on the license are not at all how it will look in the end (those freqs may not appear on those sites), that another thing. When I look at the map, I see "zones". Washington Co loves "zones" as in PD zones 1-3 and FD zones 1-4 currently (all analog). And with three associated freqs known on the licenses, each neatly tucked into its own zone, that leaves me puzzled.

So I guess until we see further license activity or something actually "come online", we aren't going to know.
 

mule1075

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I wonder what 22.5 million gets ya, in Tait dollars. IF what is currently on the licenses depicts three simulcasts, then I can't imagine it being three simulcast multi-channel setups - but I guess it could be with Phase II and maybe 2-3 channels total. Not sure how far one can go with 22.5 million. IF the freqs on the license are not at all how it will look in the end (those freqs may not appear on those sites), that another thing. When I look at the map, I see "zones". Washington Co loves "zones" as in PD zones 1-3 and FD zones 1-4 currently (all analog). And with three associated freqs known on the licenses, each neatly tucked into its own zone, that leaves me puzzled.

So I guess until we see further license activity or something actually "come online", we aren't going to know.
Typical Little Washington. Going to reach out to my contacts and see if I can get more information. Meanwhile I will keep listening for any activity.
 

mule1075

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I wonder what 22.5 million gets ya, in Tait dollars. IF what is currently on the licenses depicts three simulcasts, then I can't imagine it being three simulcast multi-channel setups - but I guess it could be with Phase II and maybe 2-3 channels total. Not sure how far one can go with 22.5 million. IF the freqs on the license are not at all how it will look in the end (those freqs may not appear on those sites), that another thing. When I look at the map, I see "zones". Washington Co loves "zones" as in PD zones 1-3 and FD zones 1-4 currently (all analog). And with three associated freqs known on the licenses, each neatly tucked into its own zone, that leaves me puzzled.

So I guess until we see further license activity or something actually "come online", we aren't going to know.
Also a side note. If some of the agencies represented in the news article and many others would switch to the assigned FG frequency not many issues to be had.
 

n3obl

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I wonder why they wouldn't join StarNet that is already in use or ICORRS? It seems like the fire chiefs are not happy with this new system.
Typical answer. They want to have full control and not have to cede to another county or state authority.
 

mtindor

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mtindor

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Peters Twp and North Strabane filed suit against the county for picking a Tait system and not going with Motorola citing there was “Holes” in the plans already
Will be interesting to see how it pans out. Didn't even know of the existence of MRA. Not sure that the system would be doomed because it's a Tait system instead of a big-M system. I'd be more worried about who was going to be maintaining it once it is built.
 
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mule1075

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Will be interesting to see how it pans out. Didn't even know of the existence of MRA. Not sure that the system would be doomed because it's a Tait system instead of a big-M system. I'd be more worried about who was going to be maintaining it once it is built.
It going to be very interesting. Typical of this County.
 

daine1619

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22.5 million dollar TAIT bid vs a 17.6 million dollar Motorola bid that covered the radios too? Seems the Motorola System was better on paper, financially, and wanted by the field users but the TAIT bid was accepted…… something smells off but it just might be the water in the mon.
 

P25ForAll

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22.5 million dollar TAIT bid vs a 17.6 million dollar Motorola bid that covered the radios too? Seems the Motorola System was better on paper, financially, and wanted by the field users but the TAIT bid was accepted…… something smells off but it just might be the water in the mon.

Don't believe everything the Big M tells you. More lurks below the surface of the Mon:
 

P25ForAll

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I wonder what 22.5 million gets ya, in Tait dollars. IF what is currently on the licenses depicts three simulcasts, then I can't imagine it being three simulcast multi-channel setups - but I guess it could be with Phase II and maybe 2-3 channels total. Not sure how far one can go with 22.5 million. IF the freqs on the license are not at all how it will look in the end (those freqs may not appear on those sites), that another thing. When I look at the map, I see "zones". Washington Co loves "zones" as in PD zones 1-3 and FD zones 1-4 currently (all analog). And with three associated freqs known on the licenses, each neatly tucked into its own zone, that leaves me puzzled.

So I guess until we see further license activity or something actually "come online", we aren't going to know.

If you dig in, past much of the rhetoric being thrown around, you will find that the Tait "system" is under $7M. The rest is new site builds, mobile radio extenders, and broadband modems... "icing on top" that still came in under the numbers that Moto crushed the county with for JUST a radio system. Plus $5M for responder radios to get you up to the $22M total. Biden Bucks are paying the bill up front, but the county would have gone into hock for the support and tower rent bill from Batwings. The county picked a small company and a manufacturer that doesn't have much of the market, but they signed a contract to deliver coverage guarantees................... and you don't have to look far to find someone disenchanted with Motorola.
 

mule1075

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Don't believe everything the Big M tells you. More lurks below the surface of the Mon:
Don't believe everything anyone tells you. This goes back to the IGCO days in the 70's. and Larry and Diane are not ones I hold any faith in even though I have known them both for 35+ years.
 

KevinC

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If you dig in, past much of the rhetoric being thrown around, you will find that the Tait "system" is under $7M. The rest is new site builds, mobile radio extenders, and broadband modems... "icing on top" that still came in under the numbers that Moto crushed the county with for JUST a radio system. Plus $5M for responder radios to get you up to the $22M total. Biden Bucks are paying the bill up front, but the county would have gone into hock for the support and tower rent bill from Batwings. The county picked a small company and a manufacturer that doesn't have much of the market, but they signed a contract to deliver coverage guarantees................... and you don't have to look far to find someone disenchanted with Motorola.
Coverage guarantees can be expensive.
 
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