We Interrupt This Broadcast

Status
Not open for further replies.

ke5fgc

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
143
Location
Tyler, TX
NY Times

ON Feb. 17, 2009, all broadcast television stations will end their analog transmissions and shift to digital signals. This is a complex process that involves spending billions of dollars to build new towers and antennas and to subsidize converter boxes for consumers who don’t have digital TVs.

In all this planning and spending on the transition to digital transmission, however, we have yet to address the question of “white spaces.” White spaces are the intervals between television channel frequencies to ensure that TV reception is not interrupted by other signals.

The usefulness of these white spaces is about to be compromised by a proposal before the Federal Communications Commission by some of the nation’s largest technology companies. Microsoft, Google and others are asking permission to use white spaces — free of charge — for millions of unregulated and unlicensed devices for personal networking systems that they would like to sell, including P.D.A.’s, wireless broadband devices and even toys.

These devices could disrupt the new digital TV signals that government and industry have spent so much time and money to promote.

In my district, which includes New York’s theater district, performers use wireless microphones on these “unused” frequencies, as do news crews conducting live interviews on the street. Every major sports franchise relies on these channels for in-game communications and sideline interviews. And in rural areas, white spaces are often used for broadband access.

Unlicensed devices, like wireless laptops and remote-controlled toys, operating in the white spaces will probably cause havoc to TV viewers, theater goers and sports fans. They could potentially render digital television sets and the government-subsidized converter boxes inoperable. Low-income households, the elderly and people living in multifamily buildings who don’t have cable service and rely on antenna systems could be prevented from watching their favorite programs and from receiving important emergency information — nationwide, that’s 45 million to 60 million people.

Unlicensed-device advocates say not to worry. They say they’ll fix the problem if it arises. But last year, when the F.C.C. tested the “sensing” mechanism of some of these unlicensed devices, none of them detected broadcast and wireless signals consistently enough to avoid interfering with them.

New Yorkers should be especially concerned. A person walking down the block looking up an address in his new P.D.A. could easily cause a television set to go blank or silence the wireless microphones worn by performers in a Broadway musical. At Giants Stadium, a quarterback could mess up an important play because he didn’t hear directions being given to him by his coach through a wireless mike. And because these personal devices would be unregistered, there would be no effective way of recalling them or curtailing their use, much less assuring that standards were adhered to their manufacture.

Legislation has been introduced in the House that calls for more research and testing of these devices and creates a timeline for their approval, giving priority to devices that provide broadband access to rural areas. Other devices would be considered only after the F.C.C. thoroughly tests the new digital transmission system.

While we should encourage technical developments, we should urge the F.C.C. to proceed with caution.

We cannot let these new developments undermine television service or hurt key sectors of our entertainment industry.

Jerrold Nadler, a Democrat, is a congressman who represents parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/opinion/09nadler.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ke5fgc

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
143
Location
Tyler, TX
The reason i posted this was because of how he talks about the "White Spaces" and how unlicensed devices will cause harmful interference.

-Josh
 

ke5fgc

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
143
Location
Tyler, TX
ke5fgc said:
NY Times

Unlicensed devices, like wireless laptops and remote-controlled toys, operating in the white spaces will probably cause havoc to TV viewers, theater goers and sports fans. They could potentially render digital television sets and the government-subsidized converter boxes inoperable.

What I am asking is how can such a low powered device >50mw cause that much interference to a Broadcast Television Signal?
 

mikepdx

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
876
Location
Corbett, OR USA
ke5fgc said:
What I am asking is how can such a low powered device >50mw cause that much interference to a Broadcast Television Signal?

Where did they get this information from
that unlicensed devices may/will cause interference?

A person walking down the block looking up an address in his new P.D.A. could easily cause a television set to go blank or silence the wireless microphones worn by performers in a Broadway musical.

Easily?
What do they base these statements on?

There seems to be no sources or studies mentioned at all.
Just the flapping lips of a congressman as a basis.
Does he have an engineering background, or do his advisors?

The story is incomplete.
I wouldn't always believe what you read.
 
Last edited:

n5ims

Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Messages
3,993
"A person walking down the block looking up an address in his new P.D.A. could easily cause a television set to go blank ..." This isn't too hard to image, especially with the RIM Blackberry outage recently.

type, type, type ... curse, swear, throw Blackberry in disgust ... run away when the thrown Blackberry smashes nearby TV.
 

nd5y

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
11,816
Location
Wichita Falls, TX
ke5fgc said:
What I am asking is how can such a low powered device >50mw cause that much interference to a Broadcast Television Signal?

Easy. A 50 mW signal a few feet away can be much stronger than a multi-kW signal many miles away.
Look up the inverse-square law.
 
Last edited:

windigofer

Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
164
Location
Louisville, KY
n5ims said:
"A person walking down the block looking up an address in his new P.D.A. could easily cause a television set to go blank ..." This isn't too hard to image, especially with the RIM Blackberry outage recently.

type, type, type ... curse, swear, throw Blackberry in disgust ... run away when the thrown Blackberry smashes nearby TV.

I'd like to know how PDAs will supposedly interfere en masse with digital TV broadcasting at *all*, save through possible heterodyning:

a) Practically all PDAs on the market operate either on cellular bands (in the *milliwatt* ranges, and for the most part nowhere *near* TV bands in operation *now*--typically, non-smartphone PDAs use 802.11b/g and/or Bluetooth, both in the 2.4GHz band, and smartphone PDAs use the same bands as regular 3G cell phones for the most part). And yes, this includes Blackberries, too; typically they use the CDMA bands (800, 900, 1800, and 1900MHz bands).

I can potentially see a case for interference caused by cell towers potentially operating in the 700MHz auctioned band--but only for TV channels very near the guard band (yes, there is a guard band between the proposed DTV channel spread and the 700MHz auctioned band where Google et al are wanting to start large wireless networks), and certainly not from someone reading email on their Blackberry.

In fact, most cellular providers are moving away from the 800MHz bands for their 3G apps--there are only two providers in New York City that even provide GSM service on the 850MHz band (namely, Verizon and AT&T). Meaning only two companies in the whole of New York City presently provide service anywhere close to existing television bands--and, as noted, there's going to be a big chunk carved out around 700MHz.

b) The proposed devices to be used in the 700MHz auctioned band are--surprise, surprise--also devices in the microvolt range. You might get interference with high-end stations. If you are playing with your Blackberry *right next to the TV*. As in about *two inches from the antenna, if then*.

To put it in perspective--the old Motorola "bag phones" typically were 3-watt phones on their highest setting. CB radios are typically 4 watts. Your average Blackberry (or Treo) is around 2.5 milliwatts for Bluetooth operation and GSM operation is typically 400-800 mW *max*. And that's in a fringe area.

c) More likely sources of interference than someone's Treo or Motorola Q or Blackberry are wireless microphones and pagers (yes, there are companies that use out-of-band paging between channels)--and most of the paging, even there, is on the *lower* channels on the VHF band, not within the 700MHz leased band or on unused UHF channels.

And--with the exception of pagers--the users of those devices are, to put it gently, Up Poo Creek Without A Paddle as far as interference concerns go; technically these are Class 15 devices, which are required to "accept interference with FCC licensed services", are considered secondary users of those bands, and "may not cause interference". (In other words, if it comes to them versus the TV station, the TV station Will Win according to the FCC regs.)

d) New York's problem is likely to be caused *not* by wireless microphones or Blackberries or other devices of this sort--New York's problem is probably going to be more of public safety frequencies potentially coming too near TV. New York is one of the few big major metro areas of the US that use lower portions of the UHF TV bands for some of their public safety channels; the present fire and EMS channels for NYC come to mind here, mostly operating in the 470-490MHz bands (and New York is one of the areas of the country where TV analogue channels 14-20 are unassigned due to their use in land mobile services.

I would also note that EMS radios and fire radios operate at substantially higher wattages than a Blackberry or a Part 15 wireless headset. :3
 

donc13

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,487
Location
Grand Junction, CO
nd5y said:
Easy. A 50 mW signal a few feet away can be much stronger than a multi-kW signal many miles away.
Look up the inverse-square law.


Since when is a person walking down a street "a few feet away" from a TV or wireless microphone worn by a performer on a stage in a theatre?
 

pappy1

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
354
Location
Central Arkansas
ke5fgc said:
NY Times

ON Feb. 17, 2009, all broadcast television stations will end their analog transmissions and shift to digital signals. This is a complex process that involves spending billions of dollars to build new towers and antennas and to subsidize converter boxes for consumers who don’t have digital TVs.

In all this planning and spending on the transition to digital transmission, however, we have yet to address the question of “white spaces.” White spaces are the intervals between television channel frequencies to ensure that TV reception is not interrupted by other signals.

The usefulness of these white spaces is about to be compromised by a proposal before the Federal Communications Commission by some of the nation’s largest technology companies. Microsoft, Google and others are asking permission to use white spaces — free of charge — for millions of unregulated and unlicensed devices for personal networking systems that they would like to sell, including P.D.A.’s, wireless broadband devices and even toys.

These devices could disrupt the new digital TV signals that government and industry have spent so much time and money to promote.

In my district, which includes New York’s theater district, performers use wireless microphones on these “unused” frequencies, as do news crews conducting live interviews on the street. Every major sports franchise relies on these channels for in-game communications and sideline interviews. And in rural areas, white spaces are often used for broadband access.

Unlicensed devices, like wireless laptops and remote-controlled toys, operating in the white spaces will probably cause havoc to TV viewers, theater goers and sports fans. They could potentially render digital television sets and the government-subsidized converter boxes inoperable. Low-income households, the elderly and people living in multifamily buildings who don’t have cable service and rely on antenna systems could be prevented from watching their favorite programs and from receiving important emergency information — nationwide, that’s 45 million to 60 million people.

Unlicensed-device advocates say not to worry. They say they’ll fix the problem if it arises. But last year, when the F.C.C. tested the “sensing” mechanism of some of these unlicensed devices, none of them detected broadcast and wireless signals consistently enough to avoid interfering with them.

New Yorkers should be especially concerned. A person walking down the block looking up an address in his new P.D.A. could easily cause a television set to go blank or silence the wireless microphones worn by performers in a Broadway musical. At Giants Stadium, a quarterback could mess up an important play because he didn’t hear directions being given to him by his coach through a wireless mike. And because these personal devices would be unregistered, there would be no effective way of recalling them or curtailing their use, much less assuring that standards were adhered to their manufacture.

Legislation has been introduced in the House that calls for more research and testing of these devices and creates a timeline for their approval, giving priority to devices that provide broadband access to rural areas. Other devices would be considered only after the F.C.C. thoroughly tests the new digital transmission system.

While we should encourage technical developments, we should urge the F.C.C. to proceed with caution.

We cannot let these new developments undermine television service or hurt key sectors of our entertainment industry.

Jerrold Nadler, a Democrat, is a congressman who represents parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/opinion/09nadler.html

Sounds like a VOTE FOR ME plug instead of based on facts.
 

AZScanner

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,342
Location
Somewhere in this room. Right now, you're very col
Aw hell I've watched DTV here in Phoenix and it ALREADY is a hit or miss proposition. Pictures freeze, tile, screen goes black, sound goes in and out, etc. It's like digital scanners - when they work well they work GREAT and when they don't they SUCK - there's no inbetween.

I will admit though that the superbowl looked pretty freaking sweet in HD when we finally found the sweet spot to put the indoor antenna. I was impressed enough by the quality to finally break down and decide to purchase one. Now I just need the money. :D
 

gmclam

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,435
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
ke5fgc said:
What I am asking is how can such a low powered device >50mw cause that much interference to a Broadcast Television Signal?
The first issue, how close is this transmitting device to a receiver? More importantly, in order for a 50mw device to be doing something, there must be ANOTHER DEVICE close enough to communicate with. So now you've got 2 devices trying to communicate, then a 2nd set of devices are on the same frequency.

The whole white space issue is being pushed by a few large companies. Rather than purchase some of the spectrum now available out there, they're tring to barge their way into this seemingly "free" spectrum. Devices have been sent to the FCC by some of these companies to show how great this new technology could work; but to date all of the devices have FAILED.
 

k8tmk

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2004
Messages
316
Location
Stevensville, MI
In my humble opinion, analog TV won't go away in my lifetime. The public just hasn't gotten the picture (no pun intended) of what is "supposed" to happen in 2009. When the general public does catch on, the government will get their butts reamed royally.
 

gmclam

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,435
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
Someone should make sure your life insurance is up-to-date. ;) OTA analog will go away soon. Certainly there will be little trickles of it, just like there are people around with Beta tape collections and other anachranisms. Since it is projected that about 85% of the viewing public gets their TV from a source other than over-the-air, turning off analog broadcasts will disrupt the fewest members of the public. I might note that the date 2/17 was not chosen by accident; it is after the next president is sworn in and after the next Super Bowl.

As previously stated there will still be low power stations and translators on the air after the hard cut-off date. And lots & lots of people will still be watching NTSC signals via their local cable companies. An agreement had been set up so that cable companies would provide both SD (NTSC) and HD signals, but many are now whining about that. It is going to be tricky to get everyone converted over, as I am sure there are still lots out there with rabbit ears and VCRs flashing 12:00.
 

Halfpint

Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
949
Location
Slightly NE of the People's Republic of Firestone
AZScanner said:
Aw hell I've watched DTV here in Phoenix and it ALREADY is a hit or miss proposition. Pictures freeze, tile, screen goes black, sound goes in and out, etc. It's like digital scanners - when they work well they work GREAT and when they don't they SUCK - there's no inbetween.
A friend of mine who works for an `up-scale' Audio Video store down in Denver had his boss pick up several samples, from different makers, of those `converter' boxes and was sending them home with different employees to try. Since my friend has cable into his house he brought them, the 3 he had been given, up to me to try because we don't have cable or Sat. reception here on the farm. The first attempts with just plain old `rabbit ears' was a very dismal flop. He then brought up several examples of supposed `HD' `indoor' antennas to try. Of all of them only the "Terk" one that looks like something from "StarTrek" was the only one that even barely brought in a slight resembalance of a signal and *that* was still not enough to watch anything on anything except the good old analog `UFO' channels. (We actually were finally able to *clearly* receive all of the `local' UHF channels instead of just ¼ of them like we've been getting.) We finally put up a `push up' mast and started trying different `outside' antennas. Of the dozen and a half or so of the ones we tried only the top three made by Winnegarde were able to bring in acceptable signals though the lesser of the three was basically *just* acceptable. After all the hassles and such we packed up everything, except the last antenna we'd tested, and I returned that stuff planning that we'd take down the mast and antenna the coming weekend when it would be more than just 2 people available. (We had the mast mounted with brackets to the side of our house and also had it guyed with some steel cable that the owner of the shop had claimed would be "more than sufficient" to do the `job'.) Unfortunately that Friday night before we were going to finish getting everything back we had wind gusts of 50+mph and the next morning I found the mast and antenna on the ground with the antenna badly mangled.

Now... We are not all *that* far from the transmitter site, *max* 50miles `as the crow flies', and, to say the least, we weren't all that impressed at what we were able to receive `picture quality-wise' even with an approximately $100+ antenna! (For those of you who are wondering why we don't have `Sat' it's because *none* of the various `providers' have been able to install a `system' and get better than basically `so-so' reception no matter how hard they have tried. One company even went as far as trying to tell us that if we were to cut down several of the 50 - 60 year old trees we have they *might* be able to get a `better' signal. (The only way a tree around here gets cut down is *if* that tree has `terminal' problems! Even though this is a farm finding and getting trees that will grow and thrive is very hard and when we have found one(s) that are able to do so we cherish them. [We finally had to cut down one that had been planted here when the place was *homesteaded*, it was planted in 1899, and it was actually a traumatic affair. We now only have *one* left and, unfortunately, it appears that it may not see another summer.] Now I will admit that the rest of our tree are *not* that old and that those two are definitely exceptions. However, even if a tree was only even 20 - 30 years old cutting it down just to be able to watch what they try to pass off as `entertainment' is not worth it. We'll just go back and re-read some of the books we already have in our library and start buying more to read and add to the library. We *may* also start buying more DVDs, too.) As for possibly getting our TV via, lessay, TPC and DSL/ADSL/Fibre or whatever... I've been fighting with TPC for *years* now just to be able to connect a better than 26.4! We are too far from the CO and even though there *is* a fibre `trunk' running up alongside the paved County road less than ½ mile to the East of us they refuse to hook us up. (I'd *gladly* pay to get a fibre connection as it would most likely actually be a lot cheaper than what I already am paying, approximately *$400/month*, for our existing phone lines and would also allow us to get rid of the 2 FX lines we have to have to call only a couple miles South of us! [We are almost exactly on the boundary of 2 area codes and while we can get by with a `normal?' POTS line to call Northward using that same line to call slightly South of us means that we have to pay `in-state' LD charges. And because a lot of the places and people we regularly call are to the South, or Southwest, of us the FX line option is actually cheaper in the long run. (A call to just Longmont, approximately 15miles due West of us, is LD! A call to Fort Lupton, which is also about the same distance but slightly South and East of us, is LD! They are both area code 303 and we are area code 970.)]) Amazingly even with all the dreck that TPC shovels up they are *a lot* cheaper than any of the cable companies. (The last time I checked, a year or so ago, the cable company who's `end of line' point is only a tad bit over ½ mile away wanted just under $12K to run a line! The excuse was that there wasn't enough `density' for it to be feasible for us to do so at this time. [Yet, we are slowly being surrounded on three sides by towns wanting to annex the land so they can increase their powers and tax bases! On two of those sides there is already development being planned and we expect that, unless we can sell out and `get the flock outa here' before then, there will be around 400 houses to our West and around 200 more houses to our South before too long *even with* the `housing slowdown'! The closest houses will be less that 250yds from our back door!])

Oh, well... Just an `Olde Fart's', *very cynical*, 2¢ worth. At least, for now, we'll still have our assorted radios to listen to. But, I am not going to hold my breath hoping that they don't screw that up, too.
 

wlmr

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
421
Can you provide your cross-street location? I'm thinking about getting my 1st digital tv and am wondering with my existing outside tv antenna how good/bad my signal will be @ 35th Avenue & Greenway. (Tried one of the USB to computer setups from the local Fry's Electronics store & it seemed to hit lots of channels. Unfortunately the computer didn't do well with the setup, even when tuned to the current analog tv stations.)

I have solid no-snow signal on the analog channels. Ok, Prescott comes in snowy when it comes in at all, but otherwise. :)

AZScanner said:
Aw hell I've watched DTV here in Phoenix and it ALREADY is a hit or miss proposition. Pictures freeze, tile, screen goes black, sound goes in and out, etc. It's like digital scanners - when they work well they work GREAT and when they don't they SUCK - there's no inbetween.

I will admit though that the superbowl looked pretty freaking sweet in HD when we finally found the sweet spot to put the indoor antenna. I was impressed enough by the quality to finally break down and decide to purchase one. Now I just need the money. :D
 

gmclam

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,435
Location
Fair Oaks, CA
Denver is a lousy location to compare with the rest of the country regarding the transition to digital TV. There has been a group there fighting the new digital transmission tower for years. I know they have a tower up now, but I'm not sure if it is at full power & coverage.

Just like with scanner reception, TV reception is all about location; mostly elevation. Those who live in a hole or concrete canyon (of tall buildings) are definitely going to have a more difficult time with reception. But for those of us with a great line of sight, we'll pick up even more signals in perfect condition than we did with analog.

I am in the 20th TV market, Sacramento CA; with the major antenna farm about 30 miles from me to the SW. At about 90 miles in the same direction is Mt. Sutro where the stations in San Francisco transmit. To the north about 70 miles is another TV market - Chico/Paradise. And when conditions are better than usual, there are several stations scattered in different directions. While analog signals looked "very good", digital signals often look perfect. Certainly there are times when dropouts make a signal not worth watching. But, just as with scanners, I am not using a (rubber) indoor antenna either. You can't expect good reception if you don't provide a good signal to a good receiver.
 

Audiodave1

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 27, 2001
Messages
1,894
Location
Chadds Ford, PA
As a professional in the audio industry that uses lots of RF gear for high profile events it will be as always... Find a way around it.
We have known for years that the 764+ spectrum was going away at some point (Along with many of those previously empty 6Mhz wide TV channels lower than 764 but that situation has stabilized and a fresh supply of lower analog channels will open up soon...so they say) and there is still space available for all of us in most places (well, major cities and entertainment districts it can be a problem)

The gear companies are having a ball scaring everyone that doesn't know any better that come midnight on that day in 09 everything we own (Mics and such) will stop working. Hogwash! The way the local and state governments work most areas are not likely to have operable systems for a couple of years.

As far as the FCC mandating, exploring or whatever devices that "Autosense" is there is a transmission in a band that won't help us 20-100mw battery powered device users one bit..but it likely will not affect us either. Our wireless signals are so far down into the noise floor compared to a 1w HT it's not even funny and these (vaporware) nifty new devices won't even know we are there because their junk RF filtering section will likely be so attenuated so as not to overload it it won't work anyhow.

I'm more worried about the iDEN handsets pulsing 2.4w (Yes Watts) output when it has an incoming call getting into my audio chain.

As for some few mw device blanking out a TV station or affecting my wireless stuff signal strength rules and thanks to the folks that developed the PLL circuits some offender better be 10dB stronger to overtake my already running device (being well received) out of the game.

Yes it could happen but I'm not worried at this point. When worry strikes it's time for some new gear.

Dave
 

windigofer

Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
164
Location
Louisville, KY
Audiodave1 said:
As a professional in the audio industry that uses lots of RF gear for high profile events it will be as always... Find a way around it.
We have known for years that the 764+ spectrum was going away at some point (Along with many of those previously empty 6Mhz wide TV channels lower than 764 but that situation has stabilized and a fresh supply of lower analog channels will open up soon...so they say) and there is still space available for all of us in most places (well, major cities and entertainment districts it can be a problem)

The gear companies are having a ball scaring everyone that doesn't know any better that come midnight on that day in 09 everything we own (Mics and such) will stop working. Hogwash! The way the local and state governments work most areas are not likely to have operable systems for a couple of years.

As far as the FCC mandating, exploring or whatever devices that "Autosense" is there is a transmission in a band that won't help us 20-100mw battery powered device users one bit..but it likely will not affect us either. Our wireless signals are so far down into the noise floor compared to a 1w HT it's not even funny and these (vaporware) nifty new devices won't even know we are there because their junk RF filtering section will likely be so attenuated so as not to overload it it won't work anyhow.

I'm more worried about the iDEN handsets pulsing 2.4w (Yes Watts) output when it has an incoming call getting into my audio chain.

As for some few mw device blanking out a TV station or affecting my wireless stuff signal strength rules and thanks to the folks that developed the PLL circuits some offender better be 10dB stronger to overtake my already running device (being well received) out of the game.

Yes it could happen but I'm not worried at this point. When worry strikes it's time for some new gear.

Dave

Well put, well put--my point exactly! (And in fact it's those noisy iDEN handsets that are necessitating rebanding of public safety frequencies--and the new band for iDEN is far enough away from the TV frequencies that it shouldn't affect it.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top