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What are my antenna options for a base, without grounding?

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stlouisx50

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I was originally going to set up a Sirio hi-gain antenna by mounting it in a tree. Whole that sounded good in theory, the issue of getting up in the tree was an issue. Then the idea of mounting the antenna to two 10 ft top rail post secured to a tree sounded good. But then came the problem of how to secure the rails to the tree. My idea was to get some square channel rod and put various sections to the front and back of the tree using bolts and then mounting u-bolts to the square rod. The cost of doing that alone with good coax, runs well over $450.00 plus connectors, mounts, etc. Then came the problem and extra cost of doing ground rods and grounding wire. Apparently due to the very Rocky earth around me as well as tree roots I'd be in for one hell of a ride. I am not sure if I could complete the install so I was wondering is there any other option that would allow me to install an antenna which would allow me to talk 30 miles or more. I do not wish to mount it to the house due to the extra costs of doing that and the ground wire/rod issue.

I thought of a dipole but would that even be worth it to try to achieve 30 plus miles? I have trees in the back where I could potentially hang it from.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

lmrtek

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Regardless of what antenna you use, you will need to drive in ground rods and ground the antenna for lightning protection.
In rocky soil you can just use multiple short rods instead of one 8 footer.
.
If you use a 1\2 wave antenna like the Sirio Gain Master, you won't have to deal with ground radials
.
 

prcguy

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Driving in ground rods and attaching to an antenna in no way provides lightning protection. Unless its a massive ground system specifically engineered and guarnteed by professionals to protect from lightning strikes its just wishful and dangerous thinking.

You will never get full protection in a pre existing residential house without spending a lot of $$. A typical ground ring around a building to be protected uses a minimum of 500 MCM stranded copper wire and needing a couple hundred feet at about $12 per foot gets very expensive. Then add trenching, lots of ground rods and exothermic welding of all connections and you have just the beginnings of a larger job. I'm not including the initial engineering costs and followup measurements needed to certify the ground system that all add up.

Even if you cheat and pound in a couple of ground rods near the antenna (which will do virtually nothing to protect you), all new ground rods would have to be bonded to the house main ground with a minimum of #6 copper wire or larger to meet code. Most people wince at just the cost of #6 copper wire, never mind the whole grounding system.

I suggest in the future if someone on RR gives specific advice to protect against lightning, the person giving advice should take full responsibility for any damage from a lightning strike if their advice fails. I say ground to code (NEC Article 810) for human safety and disconnect your antennas when lightning is a concern, and nderstand a disconnected antenna can still cause massive damage if you have a direct hit. Or pay for a professional system and rely on their guarantee. There is no logical in between.
prcguy


Regardless of what antenna you use, you will need to drive in ground rods and ground the antenna for lightning protection.
In rocky soil you can just use multiple short rods instead of one 8 footer.
.
If you use a 1\2 wave antenna like the Sirio Gain Master, you won't have to deal with ground radials
.
 
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jim202

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Grounding advice has turned into a "He says, I said" match between the different people that may stumble across a thread on the subject. Some people get really upset when another person doesn't agree with the first person.

There are even engineers that just can't stand anyone who even questions their word on how to do grounding. But one thing I will say is trying to use 500 MCM sized wire is not used but in a very few locations. The only place I have ever seen it used is in telephone central offices.

Grounding at the cellular sites around the country is done with #6 solid wire. Grounding of the commercial FM towers and the big microwave towers is done with #6 solid wires. Normally the solid wire is tinned so it won't corrode.

The NEC 810 (National Electrical Code) provides some real good guidance on grounding "Telecommunications Facilities" and antenna systems. Another place to obtain information is from your home owner's Insurance Company. Generally they have some guide line for owners to follow when installing TV antennas and ham antennas would also fall under the same classification.

I have spent many years in the cellular industry building the cellular sites. I have run into some real stupid contractors and local electrical inspectors. Many of the electrical inspectors have made fools out of them self's by demanding that grounding be done a particular way. I just ask them to show me in black and white where they are coming from to force you to do it their way. When this happens, your looking at an inspector that is trying to get a fast buck under the table before he will release your electrical meter to be installed. These same pain in the butt inspectors have also been fired on the spot by their bosses when they get that phone call from their office. It's amazing what a phone call to the inspection office to complain about what the inspector is doing will cause things to happen.

Bottom line here is if you ask 5 people how to do grounding, your going to get about 8 answers. It boils down to you have to figure out which way is the correct way. You do that by doing your homework and trying to find what your local jurisdiction is requiring. Don't forget the insurance company covering your house.

Grounding is not cheap, but neither is replacing your radio equipment and repairing damage to your house.
 

prcguy

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All the commercial satellite uplink sites and mountain top repeater sites I've worked at (lots of them) have massive grounding systems designed to survive a direct hit and they all use a minimum of 500 MCM cable for the ground ring and attachment to ground rods, cable entry ground points, etc.

These sites are usually designed by professional grounding companies who would be partially responsible if their design fails during a direct hit. I've replaced antennas blown apart by direct hits at some sites and there was no damage to the electronics so I trust the designs.

I've not worked on cell sites but would assume (hope) they are designed for direct hits. A cell site is also very small and everything is built with grounding in mind like power and antenna entry points. Grounding for an existing house to survive a direct hit is completely different and usually nothing is in the right place for adequate grounding.

The worst possible scenario would be for someone to use insufficient or wrong information to ground their antenna thinking it will withstand a lightning hit and it doesn't. There is a high price for a mistake like that.

I have lots of commercial experience grounding for lightning and have helped build many systems that do, but I would never design my own home lightning ground system because I don't have the ultimate knowledge or equipment to do that. Instead I ground to code and disconnect my antennas when storms are approaching.
prcguy


Grounding advice has turned into a "He says, I said" match between the different people that may stumble across a thread on the subject. Some people get really upset when another person doesn't agree with the first person.

There are even engineers that just can't stand anyone who even questions their word on how to do grounding. But one thing I will say is trying to use 500 MCM sized wire is not used but in a very few locations. The only place I have ever seen it used is in telephone central offices.

Grounding at the cellular sites around the country is done with #6 solid wire. Grounding of the commercial FM towers and the big microwave towers is done with #6 solid wires. Normally the solid wire is tinned so it won't corrode.

The NEC 810 (National Electrical Code) provides some real good guidance on grounding "Telecommunications Facilities" and antenna systems. Another place to obtain information is from your home owner's Insurance Company. Generally they have some guide line for owners to follow when installing TV antennas and ham antennas would also fall under the same classification.

I have spent many years in the cellular industry building the cellular sites. I have run into some real stupid contractors and local electrical inspectors. Many of the electrical inspectors have made fools out of them self's by demanding that grounding be done a particular way. I just ask them to show me in black and white where they are coming from to force you to do it their way. When this happens, your looking at an inspector that is trying to get a fast buck under the table before he will release your electrical meter to be installed. These same pain in the butt inspectors have also been fired on the spot by their bosses when they get that phone call from their office. It's amazing what a phone call to the inspection office to complain about what the inspector is doing will cause things to happen.

Bottom line here is if you ask 5 people how to do grounding, your going to get about 8 answers. It boils down to you have to figure out which way is the correct way. You do that by doing your homework and trying to find what your local jurisdiction is requiring. Don't forget the insurance company covering your house.

Grounding is not cheap, but neither is replacing your radio equipment and repairing damage to your house.
 

jwt873

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People focus on direct lightning strikes... But you can sustain damage when there is no lightning.

An undgrounded system can build up a static charge just from the potential difference between clouds and the the earth, or from the wind blowing over it. This type of charge almost always occurs during thunder storms. But can occur even when it snows.

Here's a youtube video showing what can happen if the static charge gets too high. Grounding the antenna will prevent this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPnl1S2KPag
 

prcguy

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I've lost three SGC auto tuners over the years due to high static and a lightning strike about 1 block away. In all cases the antenna tuners, feed lines and lightning arrestors were well grounded according to NEC.

A direct hit will probably wipe out all my radios and most electronics in my house so I always try to disconnect feed lines when storms are nearby or I'm on travel. There is no other way to insure your equipment will be safe unless you have a professionally engineered ground system that cost a lot of $$.
prcguy




People focus on direct lightning strikes... But you can sustain damage when there is no lightning.

An undgrounded system can build up a static charge just from the potential difference between clouds and the the earth, or from the wind blowing over it. This type of charge almost always occurs during thunder storms. But can occur even when it snows.

Here's a youtube video showing what can happen if the static charge gets too high. Grounding the antenna will prevent this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPnl1S2KPag
 

stlouisx50

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Thanks professional and non professional repliers. As of now it seems like a few grounding rods and #6 wire is good for static discharge but nothing lightning related. I suppose I get a few rods, a fence post driver and prepare for static, if lightning comes around unplug my rig. Any further advice from others welcomed as we all can learn.

Stlouisx50
 
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