What is "emergency communications"?

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K7MFC

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Do you think the public is better served by the communications licensed amateur radio operators can provide as I noted above, or would they be better off without it?

I think the public is, for the most part, completely unaware of or apathetic towards any service amateur radio in this day and age of the ubiquity of cellular and wifi network coverage.
 

vagrant

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I do not disagree with your statement. Most may be unaware. Still, do you think the public is better served by the communications licensed amateur radio operators can provide as I noted above, or would they be better off without it?
 

kc8jwt

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I think that most of the conversation can revolve around how an agency sees the value in Amateur Radio. If you have an agency that sees hams as an essential part of their response plan, then you may find that the agency will invest in and train those operators to best fit their SOP or response plans. On the other hand, if you have an agency that sees hams as a folks who get in the way, those hams will become more of a hinderance than a help.

When I was a member of RACES where I used to live, the EMA director made sure we were trained and could attend trainings that other first responders in the county attended. I attended Haz-Mat awareness classes, storm spotter training, damage assessment training, and we even attended a class on meth labs. While we wouldn't be responding to meth lab scenes, it was good to have awareness of those situations, because you would never know if we may have found ourselves in a situation doing damage assessment that we would have ran into a lab.

Most, if not all, of the general public could care less what a ham operator does or what they could possibly bring to the table when it comes to emergency communications. But I would say that if a member of the public had an interaction with a ham radio operator that was less than professional in dealing with someone in an emergency, it gives a black eye to the entire community. It is sort of the like the saying, "It only takes one person to ruin it for everyone" to apply in this situation. In our RACES organization I was a member of, we didn't have a mentality that we were more important on a scene or we were there to boss around the FD/PD/EMS. We would usually tell the IC that we were there at their disposal. Most of the time they would pass traffic from the EOC through us and they would find that they were getting more answers through us than via their dispatching.

As for communications now, cell phones are an almost ubiquitous device. But I think a situation such as the bombing in Nashville showed, that centralized communications points are a weak point for our connected society. My belief is that while the emergency aspect of Amateur Radio has diminished over the years, I think that there is still a place for hams as far as EMCOM goes. The problem that I see is that the FCC set forth in the rules governing RACES, and then the ARRL came along and established ARES. While there is different ways to get to an end point, I feel that one way comes off as a "good-'ol boys club" and the other is stuck in a rule/law that has never evolved with the times. I think what would make these types of things work would be more training for the ham operator that wants to do EMCOM and a more uniform set of rules and procedures that help with a response. You would want an operator to be able to move to another area and be able to quickly pick up how things work and interface with the agencies. I feel what we have now is local groups that are not flexible and not willing to evolve with the times.
 

K7MFC

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I do not disagree with your statement. Most may be unaware. Still, do you think the public is better served by the communications licensed amateur radio operators can provide as I noted above, or would they be better off without it?

I don't necessarily think the public would be better off without it, I just think amateur radio no longer provides the benefit or level of service in emergencies it maybe once did with today's expansive communications infrastructure. It's a hobby.
 
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mmckenna

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I rather doubt our local PS repeaters will still be on the air after that kind of thing.

Maybe in your specific area public safety radio systems are not well reinforced, but that's certainly not the case everywhere. Here in earthquake country, it's common for radio sites to have 24 hours of battery backup plus generators on site with several days worth of fuel. Many sites are also starting to add solar panels. Contracts are in place to deliver fuel at periodic intervals to keep the systems running. Add in a shore power connection, and a trailerable generator can be brought on site.

And none of that would matter when public safety users switch to analog. Like amateur radio, public safety users have access to a lot of dedicated simplex frequencies.

Yeah, sure, I know I am talking about things that are almost certainly never going to happen. Almost certainly. But if being ready for such an event is the cost of keeping ham radio legally viable, then please call it emergency communications.

It happens, but technology and training has changed the outcome. What would have been a catastrophic system failure 30 years ago isn't any more. We went through that in 2008 when someone cut a number of fiber optic cables in the area. Like what happened in Nashville, the LEC's were impacted and phone service (including wireless) in and out of the area was impacted for 24 hours. Internet access was down for most users, and many public safety radio systems that relied on conditioned phone circuits were impacted.
Yet, things kept working. Repeaters still repeated. Simplex still worked. Pre-planned response plans did what they needed to do.
The amateurs? Yeah, their role was to send a few guys to local hospitals to establish communications in case they needed it. But at the same time, every hospital was on the HEARS system and talking just fine via simplex on their own VHF frequenices.

I agree, amateur radio absolutely has it's place in emergency communications, but it's not restricted to -just- amateur radio frequencies. There are other radio services that can fit the bill if needed. Just as easily as hospitals were connected over 2 meters, GMRS would have worked just as well in our area. Heck, if they'd been on the roof tops, they probably could have used FRS.
 

mmckenna

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If you have gotten to this point of my post, here is something to consider. Do you think the public is better served by the communications licensed amateur radio operators can provide as I noted above, or would they be better off without it? If not licensed amateurs, what would be the monetary cost be for first responders to assume that role? What if these public/charity events cannot afford that cost?

I think that's a very good question.

I think the average citizen has zero or very limited knowledge of amateur radio. If you do a google search for "amateur radio" and look at the images, they are mostly older males sitting in front of a big radio. That's the image most have of it.

To them, a radio is a radio. The person operating the radio is just a human being. Doesn't matter to them if it's CB, GMRS, amateur or anything else. I doubt they put that much thought into it.

As for public service type events, that's a great place for amateur radio to fit in. I know several hams that have worked various events. They have a great time doing it and provide a useful service. But I have never seen them as "emergency" communicators. Yeah, they periodically will handle a call about a bike going down, but there's nothing to limit that traffic to the amateur radio service. REACT used to do a lot of this kind of stuff over CB, so should CB be considered an 'emergency radio service'?
 

mmckenna

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I do not disagree with your statement. Most may be unaware. Still, do you think the public is better served by the communications licensed amateur radio operators can provide as I noted above, or would they be better off without it?

I think neither.
Amateur radio fills a need, but if amateur radio went away, that need would be filled by other resources. There's not really anything magical that ham radio operators do that couldn't be done by someone else. The only difference is the access to specific frequencies, and training. Many large agencies have their own radio guys that have the training/experience/tools/equipment to get systems back on the air. Most agencies have access to simplex frequencies, and state/federal agencies have access to their own simplex HF networks.

One way or the other, the show would go on. But I don't think amateur radio is going anywhere.
 

vagrant

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Agreed on average citizen and limited knowledge. People see an antenna and may think it is for a C.B. radio. That does not invalidate the particular role amateur radio operators can still provide, although in even fewer situations these days. Technology will continue to reduce the roll the amateur radio service provides and we are all better for it. I would rather "play radio" or bend a wire to make an improved antenna then handle emergencies.

I do not disagree with agencies having their own radio people with plenty of qualified training. That too does not invalidate the role amateur radio operators can provide, or does it? That was the next part of my earlier question with regards to manpower and cost. Can a public event or charity coordinator call up the mayor and say, hey we need eight radio people to man these particular locations during our event? Someone somewhere would shoot that down. You noted it would be filled by other resources, but exactly what? Until we get the magical RF terrain buster here in California, do you think these events should invest or share the cost of multiple Garmin devices like you and I have? I guess that could handle the "emergency" aspect. Amateurs could still help with the regular non emergency traffic. Trust me, one of those rest stops is out of water. ;)
 
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mmckenna

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Agreed on average citizen and limited knowledge. People see an antenna and may think it is for a C.B. radio.

Many years ago my director referred to my 800MHz radio as a "CB". I knew what he meant, but even to an IT guy, there was zero difference to him between a CB, a trunked radio system, or a ham radio. It was just a means to get voice from one place to the other.

Didn't invalidate me or my job. It was just a generalized term he used and it made sense to him. Didn't offend me in the least. I already knew he had zero knowledge of radio systems, but that lack of knowledge didn't invalidate him, either.

I do not disagree with agencies having their own radio people with plenty of qualified training. That too does not invalidate the role amateur radio operators can provide, or does it?

It would not/should not have any impact at all on amateur radio. If a ham is offended by the lack of need for their services, that's a personal issue. Amateur radio has it's place. It may not be on the front lines, but it can still have a role. That role isn't 'first responder' or 'dispatcher' or anything else.

On the contrary, some of the hams that like to insist that they are some form of emergency communicator or first responder shows a lack of knowledge about what those jobs are. I've sat in dispatch while they've worked serious medical calls, protests and other situations. Watching a professional 911 dispatcher give CPR directions over the phone to someone, or handling radio traffic and phone traffic at the same time all while typing on the CAD terminal is way beyond the skills I see most amateur radio operators having.
I'm a ham and I'm a career radio guy. I work closely with our PD and our dispatchers. Never at any point would I assume I could do their jobs. I think most professional first responders or dispatchers would snicker at some of the stuff amateurs carry on about.


That was the next part of my earlier question with regards to manpower and cost. Can a public event or charity coordinator call up the mayor and say, hey we need eight radio people to man these particular locations during our event? Someone somewhere would shoot that down.

We've done that at work, and done several times a year. But, yeah, for most charity events, theres often rules about using taxpayer resources for that sort of stuff. Doesn't mean it cannot happen, but it's hard to do.

You noted it would be filled by other resources, but exactly what? Until we get the magical RF terrain buster here in California, do you think these events should invest or share the cost of multiple Garmin devices like you and I have? I guess that could handle the "emergency" aspect. Amateurs could still help with the regular non emergency traffic.

Well, that would depend on the event.
Used to be REACT did a lot of that stuff on CB and/or GMRS. They've mostly disappeared now. Back in the 70's/80's, there were CB clubs that offered these sorts of services.
Amateur radio can absolutely fill that role now, and do it quite well.

For emergencies or planned large events, most agencies have simplex channels they can use, or other repeated channels, or talk groups on a trunked system.
Around me, most agencies have a few satellite phones.
And then there's all the state systems.
And portable systems.

I'm not saying amateur radio doesn't have a role anymore. They do, but the days of an agency only having single channel radios, or one crappy repeater are mostly gone. When I've seen amateurs put to use in disasters or large events, they are usually not in an emergency role. They are usually handling routine traffic that needs to be kept off the public safety channels.

There are a lot of good resources out there, but unfortunately many agencies don't know about them.

And where I work, in 23 years I've been there, including fiber cuts, radio outages, disasters, fires, protests, etc, amateur radio operators have never been called in to assist in communications. Maybe some day we'll need it, but so far we haven't. We've got a lot of resources available, and a lot of people that can assist getting operations switched over.
 

mmckenna

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Personally/my opinion….
I think amateur radio has an image problem.

It needs to work on that. ARRL needs to change or get the hell out of the way. Auxcomm was a good move, but ARRL insists on the EMCOMM thing. Amateur radio has it's place, but insisting they are an emergency resource isn't working. They are a great resource for auxiliary communications to offload public safety systems in big disasters, or like you pointed out, large events.
Better organization of clubs and better standards. Drop the 'when all else fails' crap, that doesn't fly anymore. Get teams organized to fill specific roles. Drop the badges and flashing lights, that's not needed.

A groups of amateurs well organized and professional could do quite a bit. But I don't see that in my area.
 

drdispatch

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I've been involved in amateur radio Skywarn as long as I've been licensed. Thirty years ago, in an age before smartphones, I believe that amateur radio was an asset to the National Weather Service. We would go into the field, observe storms, and report what we saw. In doing so, we provided the "ground truth" that the forecasters needed to confirm what their radars and computers were telling them.

But, all that has changed. Seemingly everybody has a smartphone and decent radar apps are available for download. Just about anybody can look at their phone, conclude that some bad doo-doo is headed their way, look out the window, and call the NWS to report what they see. The NWS office I work with takes input from the general public by phone, by Facebook, by Twitter, and who knows what else. The role of the amateur radio Skywarn spotters has been diminished by technology that is now in the hands of the general public.

The NWS doesn't care how they get the info, reinforcing your "transport in the middle is moot" statement, so do they the really need amateur radio Skywarn? Extrapolating this situation to all the ways that amateur radio used to provide "emergency communications" and you start to conclude that amateur radio emcomm is not the asset that it once was...
The Skywarn groups in Southwest Michigan are still very active, and the NWS office in Grand Rapids has told us on a regular basis how much they appreciate us and the service we provide. We also work a lot of community events. All of that keeps our skills sharp.
 

vagrant

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Oh good god. If my local PD public relations officer contacts me because he knows I can use/program a radio/repeater and pass traffic, I know we're in a bad place. As you noted, there are other resources. That just would not happen.

The service we provide for our area is working. No weirdos with badges and flashing lights. We had one oddball that was sorted out though years ago. He requires medication. I definitely do not see our local municipalities providing the required number of personnel to handle radio traffic at these events either, so our separate roles are working...for us. I guess we are fortunate with the amateurs in my area.

I am not into EMCOMM and the like and I have not heard about Auxcomm until this thread. I am fine with "structure", but titles can be silly.
I don't want to sidetrack this thread about the ARRL, but they are part of the problem/solution to this "emergency communications" topic. Still, even if part (a) was stricken, we would still provide the service to the community. They come to us and request help. We definitely do not impose ourselves on their events.
 

mmckenna

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Oh good god. If my local PD public relations officer contacts me because he knows I can use/program a radio/repeater and pass traffic, I know we're in a bad place. As you noted, there are other resources. That just would not happen.

Yeah, it's nothing against amateur radio, but we just don't need them. We've got a ton of resources available to us as it is, and people that are better suited for this stuff. Bringing in an outsider and getting them oriented and set up would take way too much time. If we ever did that, we'd stick them in some out of the way location, well away from anything 'emergency' related. The last thing we'd need would be a bunch of people that didn't know their way around, didn't understand our structure, and didn't have access to our facilities. I've got spare parts, spare repeaters, spare coax, spare antennas. I've got staff I can pull from elsewhere to get that equipment installed and running if needed.

In all honesty, if we got to the point where we were starting to lose our infrastructure, the last thing our OES people are going to do is bring a bunch of volunteers into the middle of it. Too much risk, too much liability. If infrastructure is lost to the point of not being able to communicate, we've got much bigger issues.

The service we provide for our area is working. No weirdos with badges and flashing lights. We had one oddball that was sorted out though years ago. He requires medication. I definitely do not see our local municipalities providing the required number of personnel to handle radio traffic at these events either, so our separate roles are working...for us. I guess we are fortunate with the amateurs in my area.

That's good, and that's what counts. Hams have found their place and public safety has a place for them. It's not on the front lines, and it's not in any sort of 'emergency' role. As a ham myself, I don't see much that a bunch of hams could offer to use that would be much help. We have the resources we need, and it's not all built on fragile infrastructure that's going to fail the first time the wind blows.

I am not into EMCOMM and the like and I have not heard about Auxcomm until this thread. I am fine with "structure", but titles can be silly.

I agree. I'm not into the 'EMCOMM' thing either. I've researched it, but truth is if we got to the point of needing that sort of stuff from outside, I'm going to be damn busy at work and not going to drop my job to go do that stuff.

I don't want to sidetrack this thread about the ARRL, but they are part of the problem/solution to this "emergency communications" topic. Still, even if part (a) was stricken, we would still provide the service to the community. They come to us and request help. We definitely do not impose ourselves on their events.

I dropped my ARRL membership a long time back. It just got too silly with the "go boxes" "go kits" and all the stuff about "deployment" and the like. Just not my thing.

I'd absolutely contact the local ham club if I felt we needed them, but so far, hasn't happened. Not sure what they'd provide that we cannot do ourselves. I've got tons of radios that do not need a specially licensed individual operator, so no need for hams. I can grab anyone off the street and train them to use one of our radios in a few minutes.
 

drdispatch

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Post #29 from @mmckenna sparked another memory for me.
Back in 2005-ish, there was a fiber cut (backhoe fade) on the east side of our county, which caused that part of our county, in addition to portions of the adjacent counties, to lose 9-1-1 service. Our dispatch center at the time was on the west side. Myself and another member of the RACES group deployed to a fire station over there. He set up his portable base station, and I manned the phones. Everyone in the area had to call the fire station if they needed emergency services. I took the calls, relayed the info to him, he passed it to another ham in the weather ops room adjacent to dispatch. It wasn't pretty, but it worked, and we kept it up for about 4 hours. Ham radio definitely has its place, and we proved it to the powers that be that night.
(I was a dispatcher who also happened to be a ham. Or was I a ham who also happened to be a dispatcher? Po-tay-to / Po-tah-to.)
 

mmckenna

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Post #29 from @mmckenna sparked another memory for me.

And now with NextGen 911, most of that will not be necessary. Most carriers have learned their lesson about redundancy on their fiber rings. Outages are still possible (like in the Nashville area) but getting things rerouted over packet switched networks is very quick. Traditional circuit switched 911 systems are at risk for these sorts of failures, and always have been, but NG911 will resolve most of that. Our NG911 system has two completely redundant systems and 4 different IP links to the outside world, all using different paths.

When we had our fiber cuts, it gave AT&T a big ol' black eye. They ran a lot of new fiber after that (as did we), and the single points of failure have mostly been removed.

In fact, our IT guys did some testing this week where they specifically started kicking over various fiber links to confirm rerouting worked properly. With several links over completely alternate paths, it's getting more and more difficult to actually lose all our connections to the outside world. (knocks on wood). But truth is, if that did happen, I still don't see how amateur radio is going to fix anything. All our dispatch centers are linked over simplex radio, so it's not an infrastructure thing. We can roll our 911 calls to other centers. We also have several 7 digit emergency numbers that don't rely on 911 at all.
 

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While many hams (and others) agree that ham radio does (or at least should) qualify as an emergency radio service due to the service we provide when requested, apparently the FCC doesn't think so. In the rule and order that starts charging the application fee (FCC-20-184A1.pdf) they clearly state at the end of paragraph 34 - As we have noted previously, “[w]hile the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communications service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications, is one of the underlying principles of the amateur service, the amateur service is not an emergency radio service.“ (Full quote of paragraph 34 follows below.)

I do, however, agree that a good discussion on what constitutes "Emergency Communications" is worthwhile, at this point it is pretty much a moot point (as far as the FCC goes) that Amateur Radio qualifies as that type of service as a whole. The FCC does appear to agree that is part of what the ham radio service exists to assist with in an adjunct roll.

34. AGC argues that amateur radio licenses should be exempt under section 8(d)(1)(B) as they are “operating for all intents and purposes as non-profit entities” because they provide public safety and special emergency radio services in times of crisis on a volunteer basis.62 While we are very much aware of these laudable and important services amateur radio licensees provide to the American public, we do not agree that amateur radio licenses fit within the section 8(d)(1)(B) exemption Congress provided.63 These specific exemptions do not apply to the amateur radio personal licenses. Emergency communications, for example, are voluntary and are not required by our rules.64 Further, there is no indication that most or all amateurs solely use their license for emergency communications; even the section of our rules allowing certain amateur operators to broadcast civil defense communications limit such authorization to periods of local, regional or national civil emergencies.65 As we have noted previously, “[w]hile the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communications service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications, is one of the underlying principles of the amateur service, the amateur service is not an emergency radio service.“66
 
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alcahuete

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When I was involved with RACES back in the late 90s/early 2000s, amateur radio absolutely had a place in emergency communications. That place was interoperability. In any sort of disaster situation, agencies could not talk to each other as soon as the phone lines were cut, and that was here in SoCal, with big money comms. systems in place. I can't think of any time we were "deployed," so-to-speak during an actual disaster, but during the exercises, things ran smooth as glass. I can also recall one specific County public event we participated in every year in which there was law enforcement, event security, fire department, AMR, Red Cross, the event staff, and a slew of other organizations and agencies that participated. We set up a portable repeater, had our folks shadow all the various agencies, and comms. went extremely well. It is something that could not have happened without us, in fact. We all had mandatory issued fire department uniforms, but no vests, no flashing lights, no whackerism, none of it. Nobody was interested in that at all. That particular RACES group was also mostly entirely EMT or Paramedic certified, at the least, and the tiny number of people who weren't had extensive First Aid and CPR certifications. Aside from communicating, we were also literally saving lives. When I'm in the street using my ham radio while intubating somebody who is dying from heat stroke, that's emergency communications.

Well that was 20 years ago. A lot of things have changed between then and now. All the issues where amateur radio used to shine have largely been resolved. The public service systems are now generally very robust, and have many redundancies in place. Long distance comms. have been resolved by satellite phones. Where trunking systems and repeaters fail, the public service guys and gals are able to use simplex just like us. A lot of lessons were learned from 9/11, and a lot of fixes were made specifically following those events.

Does ham radio still have its place? Absolutely! And for the 4% of hams who volunteer for public service, my hat's off to you! But that place is not on the front line. That place is not jumping into the whackermobile, lights and sirens blaring, and showing up at a disaster thinking you're a public service worker. That used Crown Vic Police Interceptor you have sitting in the driveway with yellow lights and ARES magnets on the doors? Yeah...not needed.

The one group I see doing amateur radio properly is CERT. It really does fit in to the "When all else fails" category. But it's not an amateur radio organization. CERT uses FRS, GMRS, MURS, Part 90 right along with amateur radio. It is a disaster relief organization where amateur radio just happens to be used. That's the most important aspect. Like my RACES group was, CERT is not a bunch of amateur radio operators who show up ready to whack. They are specially trained in disaster relief, search and rescue, first aid, etc., for major disasters in which public service is going to be overwhelmed and might not get to your neighborhood in a timely manner.

Does any of that make amateur radio an emergency radio service? No! It is a communications service that can be utilized during emergencies, just like dozens of other forms of communications, but it is not in and of itself a radio system purposefully designed or used for emergency services.
 

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But I would say that if a member of the public had an interaction with a ham radio operator that was less than professional in dealing with someone in an emergency, it gives a black eye to the entire community. It is sort of the like the saying, "It only takes one person to ruin it for everyone" to apply in this situation.
This is very true and I think we've all seen it happen. Sadly, the people causing the black eye rarely realize what they have done.

But I think a situation such as the bombing in Nashville showed, that centralized communications points are a weak point for our connected society.
Were Nashville Police and Fire, Tennessee State Police, FBI, or ATF communications affected by AT&T's outage?

The problem that I see is that the FCC set forth in the rules governing RACES, and then the ARRL came along and established ARES.
ARES came first. It was first discussed in QST in 1935. RACES came along after World War II.

I think what would make these types of things work would be more training for the ham operator that wants to do EMCOM and a more uniform set of rules and procedures that help with a response. You would want an operator to be able to move to another area and be able to quickly pick up how things work and interface with the agencies. I feel what we have now is local groups that are not flexible and not willing to evolve with the times.
The current ARES training plan and task book address this. Some ARES groups have adopted it, but, unfortunately, it is being met with resistance and apathy by some ARES volunteers. And, then, you have the problem of insular ARES groups who refuse to cross-train or interact with other ARES groups near them.
 

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Amateur radio's value to the public, both during emergencies and non-emergencies, are in it's people's skill set. Specifically referencing basis and purpose, 97.1 section d which states:
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.

This is where amateur radio can have just as much value to the public and is often under played because it doesn't have the "whacker appeal" of the word "emergency" which, IMO, often is misleading and draws the wrong crowd (whackers, stringers, etc). To me, as an emergency communications professional, the use of the term "emergency services" should be reserved for those actually trained, vetted and a part of an official (government) entity involved in emergency response. This is also why FEMA has embraced AUXCOMM aka RACES 2.0

That being said, the value of the amateur community to be that "trained operator, technician and electronic experts" spells out a need that has never been greater. RF Interference Mitigation is a costly and specialized field that is needed more than ever. The collective noise floor on ALL radio spectrum is rising as are cases of interference. If amateur radio operators can be of value, this is where the need truly is. But the key is improving the skill set to match. A guy with a bandolero of Baoturds isn't going to accomplish much, and none of this requires a vehicle with flashing lights, orange vests, guns, badges or interaction with TEH POLICE.

Now, that ham with a working technical skill set of RF interference, RF spectrum, a spectrum analyzer, field strength meter, and a desire to find out why (RF interference source) is creating havoc is more of a value to the public than strolling round town with "EMERGENCY SERVICES" in mailbox letters on a CVPI with antenna farm will ever be.
 
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