What Kind of system would you pick?

[CDS-INC]

My Organization is going to be purchasing a radio system,
We are still in the stages of planning this system. We are in a Metropolitan Area. I am looking for your opinion on what type of radio system you would construct in terms of repeaters and radios and dispatch?

We are a Non-Profit Organization who was granted a certian amount of funding to construct the start-up of this system.

We are going to purchase atleast 18 Portable radios USED and a few mobiles and a Dispatch Console with CAD Software,

I am looking for your opinions on what type of system you would construct out of used equipment and the band that would be best to use in a Metro Area,

We have yet to go through the FCC and coordonation stages, this is just a sketch pad idea for right now

 

[zz0468]

You haven't given us sufficient information to make a recommendation. Some of the things you'll need to take into consideration are:

1. What type of organization is this? This information is necessary to establish eligibility for an FCC license.

2. What is the required coverage area?

3. How will the radios be used. You mention portables... will they be used outside at events, or is there an expectation that they will work everywhere within this metro area, including inside buildings.

4. Is it public safety grade service? Will peoples lives depend on this, or is this system more of a tool or convenience?

5. What's the budget for initial start up? What's the budget for ongoing expenses like site rental and power?

6. Define the need for CAD software. What exactly do you expect to do with it?

You're delving into a system beyond the point that it's appropriate to be asking advice on a hobby type forum. Consoles and CAD systems can be extremely expensive. Don't expect to find a used CAD system that you can press into service. The software is generally very customized per the needs of the original customer.

It sounds like you should start with the services of a competent consultant.

 

[swstow]

if your in a metro area find out who services the local gov radios and get with them. they would have a inside for used equip,
you my want to look into leasing the equip, better equip and services contracts that save in the long run

 

[zz0468]

if your in a metro area find out who services the local gov radios and get with them. they would have a inside for used equip

If they're local government employees doing that work, the rules regarding used equipment are likely to be so strict, you wouldn't want to go there. There are plenty of reputable dealers of used equipment that advertise on the web, ebay, and in the trade magazines.

 

[CDS-INC]

You haven't given us sufficient information to make a recommendation. Some of the things you'll need to take into consideration are:

1. What type of organization is this? This information is necessary to establish eligibility for an FCC license.

2. What is the required coverage area?

3. How will the radios be used. You mention portables... will they be used outside at events, or is there an expectation that they will work everywhere within this metro area, including inside buildings.

4. Is it public safety grade service? Will peoples lives depend on this, or is this system more of a tool or convenience?

5. What's the budget for initial start up? What's the budget for ongoing expenses like site rental and power?

6. Define the need for CAD software. What exactly do you expect to do with it?

You're delving into a system beyond the point that it's appropriate to be asking advice on a hobby type forum. Consoles and CAD systems can be extremely expensive. Don't expect to find a used CAD system that you can press into service. The software is generally very customized per the needs of the original customer.

It sounds like you should start with the services of a competent consultant.

1. The Organization is a Volunteer Public Safety and Training Organization that provides Public Safety Services to Metro Area's Such as:

EMS Patrols for Special Events
Security Patrols for Downtown Districts
Terror Incident/Major Incident Response
EMS Mutual Aid
Special/Heavy Rescue Services for Mutual Aid and Major Incidents

2. The Required Coverage area would be 3 Metropolitan Cities in 1 county

3. The Radios will be used for Events and Patrol Services and inside buildings

4. Peoples lives will depend on the services that is provided in certian incidents

5. The initial startup grant we are going to receive is $25,000

6. We need a software to assign "jobs" and "Job Numbers" so we can file reports so that clients can review them

This organization is not a "play club", All members in this organization are training and certified in fields such as:

EMT-B or Higher
Fire Fighter I or Higher
Apco Dispatcher certified
Security Officer Certified
Special Rescue Certified

As i said, this is just the planning stages, so excuse my lack of knowing how to plan a system.
I know that our organization has to furfill certian aspects of the FCC Planning such as coordonation and such, So any help in planning this system would be a plus.

I am also looking for help in the planning stages of this organization. We already have our Non-Profit Status Filed, and we are still looking for information and Tips and idea's as to planning and operation.
Any help would be much appreciated,

Please email John at :

CDS.Defense@gmail.com


for information or to offer any help possible.

I've heard of organizations such as this, I actually did some research and found this:

http://www.aaof.com/star.htm

So i know it's not impossible to do, so any help or suggestions would be greatly appeciated

 

[zz0468]

1. The Organization is a Volunteer Public Safety and Training Organization that provides Public Safety Services to Metro Area's Such as:

EMS Patrols for Special Events
Security Patrols for Downtown Districts
Terror Incident/Major Incident Response
EMS Mutual Aid
Special/Heavy Rescue Services for Mutual Aid and Major Incidents

You may have eligibility under Part 90 in the Public Safety pool. That may or may not be a good thing. It's worth looking into, but don't count on it. The frequencies can be as crowded as business frequencies. But you may be able to share with compatible co-channel users.

2. The Required Coverage area would be 3 Metropolitan Cities in 1 county

This could be considered wide area coverage, especially if more than one site is required to fill it. Is there a requirement to talk from one city into another?

3. The Radios will be used for Events and Patrol Services and inside buildings

Inside building coverage will be dicey unless you spend BIG bucks. Don't count on it. Instead, plan on ways of working around it.

4. Peoples lives will depend on the services that is provided in certian incidents

Just the vicarious liability of that would frighten me away.

5. The initial startup grant we are going to receive is $25,000

You're looking at ebay grade radios. You can do ok with careful shopping, but you'll need someone who knows what they're doing.

6. We need a software to assign "jobs" and "Job Numbers" so we can file reports so that clients can review them

That will probably be the single biggest expense, unless you can find an off the shelf product.

This organization is not a "play club", All members in this organization are training and certified in fields such as:

EMT-B or Higher
Fire Fighter I or Higher
Apco Dispatcher certified
Security Officer Certified
Special Rescue Certified

I'm certainly not detecting the usual 'whacker' mentality here. I really think you should look into a local consultant who knows the radio environment in your area. You may be able to find someone willing to donate the time. Above all else, I'd have a VERY firm plan, and license in hand, before I'd spend one penny on the actual radios.

 

[CDS-INC]

zz0468, thank you for your quick response,

The $25,000 is just a private grant from a local organization to start out, We do not plan on purchasing or doing anything until we are properly certified and licensed for our area(s) of intrest,
I know that there has been alot of questioning about other idea's presented on this board because of the lack of, or crazy idea's people have had or tried to go through without the proper training.

The last thing i would want is the lable of a "Wanna-be" or "Whacker" as you put it for a better term,

This organization is going to be Homeland Security Based and our goal is to be able to respond to Major Emergencies and Incidents, and to be able to provide Services to cities who have what i like to call "Metro Problems" such as a shortage of Police or EMS Officers,
This organization would be based around Highly trained and Certified People who are able to quickly respond to emergencies and Mutual Aid Calls.

We also had a Discussion about adding in the future a Voice Paging system much like VFD's use.
But we are unable to find any information at this time regarding a voice paging system.

We are also going to apply for grants to meet the requirements of this radio system through the US Goverement. We have been in discussion with a local Non-Profit Agency that can assist in finding funding, Investors and Grant programs.
We were told that our organization should try to apply twords technoligy grants to meet our systems needs.
We also talked with a local Fire Department who suggested that our organization should try to go P25 to meet technological needs, But upon further research of P25 Ready Equipment, We find that P25 Radios can be upwards to $2500.00 for 1 Radio, As we are currently 13 members, We anticipated on purchasing 18 Portable Radios.

But as i said, we are still in the planning phase of this organization, We have yet to meet the funding needs of all the equipment, I was told that the Radio system should be a seperate venture in terms of funding because of the cost and setup of such a system for a Non-Profit Organization.

 

[swstow]

If they're local government employees doing that work, the rules regarding used equipment are likely to be so strict, you wouldn't want to go there. There are plenty of reputable dealers of used equipment that advertise on the web, ebay, and in the trade magazines.[/QUOT

companys like tyco ( ma-com / com international ) are private and deal in radios for many companys private or public safety
also many citys sell off old radios systems when the upgrade, ( the city i worked for went to 800 and sold all for our old uhf equip to a smaller city )

 

[zz0468]

companys like tyco ( ma-com / com international ) are private and deal in radios for many companys private or public safety
also many citys sell off old radios systems when the upgrade, ( the city i worked for went to 800 and sold all for our old uhf equip to a smaller city )

Surplus equipment is usually sold off by a department such as the purchasing department. Sometimes it's possible to get specific items granted to another organization, or smaller city like what your city did, but again, the rules can be strict. Most of the time, the surplus is sold in lots by the pallet load, and for a small group looking for specific items, it's not the best way to go.

The stuff a company like M/A-Com (I am VERY familiar with them) takes in trade often gets the sledge hammer to keep it from being resold.

It's always worth asking, though. The worst they can say is no.

 

[RKG]

If by "system" you mean things like a high site, one or more dispatch-grade base stations (i.e., Quantars or MTR2000s), voting receivers, and a workable dispatch console, your $25K budget will prove to be way short of what is needed.

The first thing you need to do, before spending $1, is to locate a competent and reputable dealer or RF consultant firm in your area to help you with system design.

 

[Don_Burke]

As others have stated, you will not be getting much beyond general guidance around here.

My initial take is that building your own trunked system will be way out of your price range, although you may be able to get on an existing system.

P25 is also well beyond the price range.

If you want to fiddle with a conventional system, you could gather up some amateur radio operators and try communicating on 2 meters and 70 cm from various places in the area so that when you talk to the consultant you will have some sense of the problems with VHF high and UHF. For that matter, 10 and 6 meters can give you a glimpse of VHF low, although I would not put out much effort to try them.

The consultant is going to be the real answer generator.

 

[SCPD]

wasted thread??. like posting on a forum wil help buy a complete radio system.. Ask someone that REALLY Knows??. not bunch of scanner users?

 

[hoser147]

The first place you should start is with the County Homeland security office where you are serving, and then the 3 metro area's. Are they already upgraded to a P-25 system and are they going to grant you access to that system or any system they are using? Sometimes it is very difficult to get all the active agencies to agree on someone to have access to all the systems that they might have or use. What cities or systems are we talking about? I believe there are more questions that will have to be answered before you are even near the point of picking out a system let alone how you are going to access funding for a said system. Do you have a Mutual Aid agreement with all the municipalities involved? If the area is going thru a change in comms systems, it may be possible to be able to get or acquire a system that they will be discontinuing as they change over to a new system. Sounds like you have a lot of homework to do, before you are at a point where you will be purchasing radio's and other related gear. It is possible to acquire equipment from other agencies that is no longer in use, Ive seen where departments have sold their old equipment to another new or even an older agency that is in need for as little as $1. For what you are looking for 25K will not get you very far. Not trying to say it cant be done, you just have alot to work thru............Hoser

 

[n8emr]

1. The Organization is a Volunteer Public Safety and Training Organization that provides Public Safety Services to Metro Area's Such as:


This organization is not a "play club", All members in this organization are training and certified in fields such as:

EMT-B or Higher
Fire Fighter I or Higher
Apco Dispatcher certified
Security Officer Certified
Special Rescue Certified

WHY are you re-inventing the wheel? Why not take the money go to your local public safety people and ask for a couple of trunk groups. Covering a "metro" area is expensive. Work with homeland security and local public safety people. Your $25K isnt going to go very far either way but a single site repeater system that will most likley NOT give you the coverage you need will run almost 1/2 your $25 in repeater cost, insallation and rental fees. Going with an existing system you might pay more for the radio's but you will have a more reliable system and properly managed system.

 

[CDS-INC]

WHY are you re-inventing the wheel? Why not take the money go to your local public safety people and ask for a couple of trunk groups. Covering a "metro" area is expensive. Work with homeland security and local public safety people. Your $25K isnt going to go very far either way but a single site repeater system that will most likley NOT give you the coverage you need will run almost 1/2 your $25 in repeater cost, insallation and rental fees. Going with an existing system you might pay more for the radio's but you will have a more reliable system and properly managed system.

I am going to run the Idea of trying to add on to an existing system, We do have a few P25 systems in my area that are already up, and the way it looks, it might be much more cost effective.

As i stated before, we are still in the planning stages of the organization, so we are in need of alot of help,

There is a LTR Passport/Standard system in my area to, I am going to look into all of that.

 

[TheZach]

1. The Organization is a Volunteer Public Safety and Training Organization that provides Public Safety Services to Metro Area's Such as:

EMS Patrols for Special Events
Security Patrols for Downtown Districts
Terror Incident/Major Incident Response
EMS Mutual Aid
Special/Heavy Rescue Services for Mutual Aid and Major Incidents

2. The Required Coverage area would be 3 Metropolitan Cities in 1 county

3. The Radios will be used for Events and Patrol Services and inside buildings

4. Peoples lives will depend on the services that is provided in certian incidents

5. The initial startup grant we are going to receive is $25,000

6. We need a software to assign "jobs" and "Job Numbers" so we can file reports so that clients can review them

This organization is not a "play club", All members in this organization are training and certified in fields such as:

EMT-B or Higher
Fire Fighter I or Higher
Apco Dispatcher certified
Security Officer Certified
Special Rescue Certified

As i said, this is just the planning stages, so excuse my lack of knowing how to plan a system.
I know that our organization has to furfill certian aspects of the FCC Planning such as coordonation and such, So any help in planning this system would be a plus.

I am also looking for help in the planning stages of this organization. We already have our Non-Profit Status Filed, and we are still looking for information and Tips and idea's as to planning and operation.
Any help would be much appreciated,

Please email John at :

CDS.Defense@gmail.com


for information or to offer any help possible.

I've heard of organizations such as this, I actually did some research and found this:

http://www.aaof.com/star.htm

So i know it's not impossible to do, so any help or suggestions would be greatly appeciated

Gmail for an organization like this..... thats like the michigan state police using zazzle.com for there uniforms.

 

[CDS-INC]

Gmail for an organization like this..... thats like the michigan state police using zazzle.com for there uniforms.

It's not an offical email as of yet, We are looking at 1&1.com as an email server and website service

 

[smokeybehr]

My advice is to talk to the different radio shops in your area and see if someone has talkgroups available on their system. Also see if they will give you a discounted rate on the radios and airtime.

One of the primary things that you should do, before you ever think about getting radios (or anything else for that matter) is file paperwork as a non-profit corporation with your state and the IRS. This will open up a whole new level of funding through both private and public sources that can't be had by a for-profit company; plus you will limit your exposure to liability for what you might do (or not do). Consult with a lawyer who is experienced in putting together non-profits, and not just use an ordinary lawyer or online service.

 

[CDS-INC]

My advice is to talk to the different radio shops in your area and see if someone has talkgroups available on their system. Also see if they will give you a discounted rate on the radios and airtime.

One of the primary things that you should do, before you ever think about getting radios (or anything else for that matter) is file paperwork as a non-profit corporation with your state and the IRS. This will open up a whole new level of funding through both private and public sources that can't be had by a for-profit company; plus you will limit your exposure to liability for what you might do (or not do). Consult with a lawyer who is experienced in putting together non-profits, and not just use an ordinary lawyer or online service.

That is what we planned to do in terms of qualifing as Non-Profit Status, We are in the process of all the paper work and seeking a specialized non-profit lawyer ect.

As i stated before, we WILL NOT be in operation until everyone is certified and trained and we have all the authorizations from local and state agencies in the area(s) of service.

All the members of this organizations have to meet the state certification requirements before anyone hits the road or goes out into the public.
We do not want to risk anyone's lives.

I had another question,

I see that many colleges and universities have Public Safety Officers on their campus,
Is there a way to start a Public Safety Agency or Organization that is non-profit and Volunteer?

I looked for all the state requierments regarding this issue and all i can find is a security contractors license, I can not find anything about licensing as a Public Safety Agency

 

[comsec1]

no system necessary

don't fall for the silk suited salesman pitch ( /\/\ ). you are much better off with a simple conventional radio set. the cost to run and maintain a radio "system" 24/7/365 are astronomical. and the vendor is constantly upgrading which forces you to upgrade.
also with a simple repeater set up you are not locked into buying "their" radios, you can purchase the most economical ones to suit your needs. as you can see by the survey vhf conventional is the winner.