What radios work on a Motorola P-25 TRS?

[KAA951]

This question was posted on another thread concerning the Kansas State P-25 Digital TRS...

I've heard that the ONLY radios that will work on the system is EF Johnson or Motorola, since it is a Smartzone (Motorola) system. The only other manufacturer authorized to work on a Smartzone system is EF Johnson. Is this not correct? Our agency had looked at the Harris multi-band digital capable radios since we have UHF here as well, and were told that Harris radios are not authorized Smartzone radios, therefore they would not work on the KSICS.

Is this correct? The state had sold the idea that P-25 was a common signaling architecture and local agencies would not be limited to just Motorola products. Is EF Johnson the only other radios that will work on this type of system?

KDOT is offering EF Johnson radios for lease / purchase to users in addition to Motorola.

http://www.ksdot.org:9080/burConsMain/Connections/Radio/EFJohnson.pdf

 

[N4DES]

If it a 3600 baud control channel then the quoted statement is true. I have both EFJ and Motorola radios on a Moto SmartZone System. If the system is a 9600 baud system then the statement is false and almost any manufacturer, as long as they make a radio in the systems particular band (VHF, UHF, or 800), is supposed to work.

Mark

 

[KAA951]

If it a 3600 baud control channel then the quoted statement is true. I have both EFJ and Motorola radios on a Moto SmartZone System. If the system is a 9600 baud system then the statement is false and almost any manufacturer, as long as they make a radio in the systems particular band (VHF, UHF, or 800), is supposed to work.

Mark

It is a 9600 baud system.

 

[N4DES]

Then you can figure out the answer by my prior post.

 

[ElroyJetson]

To clarify matters, SmartZone is NOT P25 trunking. Only P25 trunking is P25 trunking. Although SmartZone is structurally similar to P25 trunking, SmartZone (and Smartnet) are Motorola proprietary formats. Only EFJ also offers Smartnet compatible radio equipment, as a result of a cross-licensing agreement that gave Motorola access to the LTR markets as well.

In a true P25 system, be it conventional or trunking, you have a variety of vendors to choose from. Harris, Racal, Thales, Tyco (which is now Harris-owned), Motorola, Raytheon, Daniels, and other companies are P25 vendors. Not all of them make all kinds of equipment.

Elroy

 

[immelmen]

To clarify matters, SmartZone is NOT P25 trunking. Only P25 trunking is P25 trunking. Although SmartZone is structurally similar to P25 trunking, SmartZone (and Smartnet) are Motorola proprietary formats.

Elroy

A Smartzone TRS may not always be a P25 system, BUT a P25 TRS is Smartzone 6.x/7.x. The other slew of vendors can make and sell the equipment but they are doing it under license from Motorola who owns the IP rights.

Remember, Smartzone does not automatically mean proprietary 3600 control channels, that is Type II. The Project 25 standard for trunking systems is Motorola SZOL (9600CC) so by defacto all P25 TRSs are Smartzone with a government issued pseudonym stamped on them. The catch to being the winner was Moto had to share their toys with all the other kids.

 

[N_Jay]

A Smartzone TRS may not always be a P25 system, BUT a P25 TRS is Smartzone 6.x/7.x. The other slew of vendors can make and sell the equipment but they are doing it under license from Motorola who owns the IP rights.

Remember, Smartzone does not automatically mean proprietary 3600 control channels, that is Type II. The Project 25 standard for trunking systems is Motorola SZOL (9600CC) so by defacto all P25 TRSs are Smartzone with a government issued pseudonym stamped on them. The catch to being the winner was Moto had to share their toys with all the other kids.

OK, here we go assigning technical meaning to Brand Names again.

SmartZone is a brand name.. Motorola did call the 6.x and 7.x systems SmartZone before they started using the ASTRO25 brand name.

Brand names are fairly meaningless and unreliable in a technical discussion.

Yes EFJ is licensed to use the Motorola proprietary 3600 BPS control channel trunking format.

No you don't need a license from Motorola for the P25 9600 BPS trunking format.
BUT, there may be some companies that have licensed pieces from Motorola to ease their development.

 

[immelmen]

Brand names are fairly meaningless and unreliable in a technical discussion.

Usually true, but I dont think so in this case. Saying P25 trunking is not Smartzone is like saying CAI is not IMBE.....

No you don't need a license from Motorola for the P25 9600 BPS trunking format.

Oh yes you do...the caveat is Motorola MUST issue the license if you pay to play. Below are a few paragraphs from Moto's webpage titled "Motorola P25 Essentials Licensing Program" found here-> Government & Public Safety Licensing - Motorola . If you look at the pdf document at the very bottom of the page titled "Motorola P25 Licensees" you will find a nice list of vendors who have paid for Motorola's P25 toys, with noteworthy companies including: EFJ, Harris, ICOM, Vertex, Thales and DVSI.

"...Motorola’s P25 Essentials Licensing program grants rights to Motorola's P25 Essential patent families......

.....Generally, the license may not be transferred to another party, but Motorola will consider requests to do so on a case-by-case basis. Grants may include the right to make, distribute and sell P25-compliant TERMINALS and INFRASTRUCTURE EQUIPMENT. All essential licenses are subject to reciprocity. That is, licensees are required to cross-license any patents they may own or control that may be essential to the P25 standard or that are found to be essential in the future....

....Financial terms are dependent upon a prospective licensee’s P25 Essentials patent holdings, if any. Royalty rates are expressed in a fixed amount and are reviewed periodically to ensure they remain in line with market trends, technology maturity and portfolio coverage..."

 

[N_Jay]

Oh yes you do...the caveat is Motorola MUST issue the license if you pay to play. Below are a few paragraphs from Moto's webpage titled "Motorola P25 Essentials Licensing Program" found here-> Government & Public Safety Licensing - Motorola If you look at the pdf document at the very bottom of the page titled "Motorola P25 Licensees" you will find a nice list of vendors who have paid for Motorola's P25 toys, including: EFJ, Harris, ICOM, Vertex, Thales and DVSI.

"...Motorola’s P25 Essentials Licensing program grants rights to Motorola's P25 Essential patent families......"

Yes, there are lots of technology licenses in almost all standards.

The issue is they are licensing technology that Motorola has provided or identified as essential to the standard.
Yes, some of that technology may (probably) is embodied in SmartNet. SmartZone, and/or Astro equipment and systems, but that is NOT the same as licensing SmartZone.

Usually true, but I dont think so in this case. Saying P25 trunking is not Smartzone is like saying CAI is not IMBE......"

Saying P25 trunking (as defined by the standard) is not "SmartZone" (as defined by Motorola over the many years it used the brand name) is like saying;
a ford is not a pick-up truck. (It may be or it may not be; so the statement is meaningless)

 

[immelmen]

Yes, there are lots of technology licenses in almost all standards.

The issue is they are licensing technology that Motorola has provided or identified as essential to the standard.
Yes, some of that technology may (probably) is embodied in SmartNet. SmartZone, and/or Astro equipment and systems, but that is NOT the same as licensing SmartZone.


Saying P25 trunking (as defined by the standard) is not "SmartZone" (as defined by Motorola over the many years it used the brand name) is like saying;
a ford is not a pick-up truck. (It may be or it may not be; so the statement is meaningless)

I dont think we are discussing the same point. You are talking about a brand name(which you are correct is not licensed), I am talking about the technology behind it (which is licensed out by Moto).

I am confused by your Ford truck analogy. It implies that there are P25 Trunking systems that do not use Smartzone 6.x technology (forget the brand name), but that is not the case so far as I am aware. A better analogy would be: Saying P25 Trunking is not smartzone, is like saying a F150 is not a pickup truck.....It is still a truck even if you pry the label off the tailgate.

Advil = Smartzone... Drugstore Generic = P25 .... Ibuprofen = Moto 6.x trunking technology........its all the same stuff

 

[N_Jay]

Smartzone contains a LOT of technology that is in P25, and a lot that is not.
Heck, EDACS contains technology that is in P25 and technology that is not.

There are plenty of differences between SmartZOine trunking and P25 that had to be changed in Motorola systems to bring them into compliance.

You seem to imply that P25 trunking IS just SmartZone under a different label. Not only are you wrong, but I think that might come as a bit of a surprise to the many non-Motorola members of TIA-TR8 that worked on TIA-102

 

[immelmen]

There are plenty of differences between SmartZOine trunking and P25 that had to be changed in Motorola systems to bring them into compliance.

Cool, Im always interested to learn more. Every thing I have read pointed to Motorola engineering SZ 6.x to the specs of P25 from the start and it was subsequently adopted as the standard. Please share some details of what is different between P25 TRS and Moto's latest smartzone offerings. I would be sincerely interested to learn as Moto bills them as one in the same.

 

[N_Jay]

You still don't get it.

Of course Motorola sell its P25 Trunking systems as "P25", and Guess what, Tyco (now Harris) sells its P25 trunking system as "P25", and EFJ does, and EADS does, and RELM does, and ICOM does, and . . . . . .

That is what a standard is.

What you are saying is like saying WiFi is just relabeled ALTAIR, or TETRA is just relabeled iDEN, or Ethernet is just relabeled DecNet.

One difference was in the way emergency calls were handled. I believe this has been resolved.
I also believe there was a difference in how site-to-site hands offs were accomplished, but I am not sure if this was in the standard or an operational difference.

 

[immelmen]

...You still don't get what I am trying to say, so never mind. The way the transmission shifts or the addition of OnStar in a 2005 vs. a 2006 Cadillac is different too, but its still a Cadillac. Just because Small, but important, things are added or improved does not completely change the function of the vehicle.

Compare a Type II SZOL vs. a P25 codeplug in CPS and it is blatantly obvious the framework, function and architecture of Smartzone is alive and well.

 

[N_Jay]

The code plug is how parameters are loaded into a subscriber unit, not how the system operates.
You are using unrelated "facts" to convince yourself you are right.
Two Motorola code-plugs for different formats (i.e a P25 XTS radio and a SZ XTS radio) and going to be more similar than the code-plugs for two different brand radios using the same format (i.e. a Motorola P25 radio and Tyco P25 radio.

 

[MTS2000des]

The code plug is how parameters are loaded into a subscriber unit, not how the system operates.
You are using unrelated "facts" to convince yourself you are right.
Two Motorola code-plugs for different formats (i.e a P25 XTS radio and a SZ XTS radio) and going to be more similar than the code-plugs for two different brand radios using the same format (i.e. a Motorola P25 radio and Tyco P25 radio.

A side by side comparison of codeplugs from an Astro 25 enabled portable versus one flashed only for SZ 4 are very different. Many features and fields aren't there in an Astro 25 CAI enabled radio. Side by side comparison of an Astro 25 enabled XTS2500 is very different from a codeplug without one. And you cannot drag and drop most records from one to the other when you open two instances of Astro 25 CPS.

Motorola has a field in an Astro 25 codeplug with Astro 25 SZ labeled "Astro 25 Prop Features" which if you click the help tab reads the following:
(It is in the codeplug tree under Trunking System, under the tab labeled Astro 25.)

"Enables Motorola Proprietary Inbound Signaling Packet (ISP) transmissions to be sent by the radio. This feature applies while operating on the current Trunking System."

This implies that there are obviously some major differences in the inbound signaling framework that each radio has to be programmed to accept such transmissions when used on an Astro 25 trunked system versus a non-Astro 25 P25 trunked system.

 

[immelmen]

Oh please just stop. At no point in any of my posts did I state or imply that SZ has not evolved or been improved from previous offerings, rather I made reference to the opposite. If you cant support your point without putting words in my mouth then I'm done with the conversation.

The Project 25 trunking framework is technology that Motorola owns the IP rights to. Motorola calls this technology Astro25 Smartzone...if you want to argue it any further, take it up with them.

 

[WayneH]

You are using unrelated "facts" to convince yourself you are right.

Please go find another thread. This isn't going anywhere positive.