When Is YOUR Big Day AOR ?

[Alex_S]

I see the guys and gals who have supported Whistler are getting a big rollout tomorrow, December 15, as NXDN becomes available for the Whistler scanners. A lot of fanfare and hoopla being made and deservedly so. (And take note Uniden-- it is a freebie and not $50 a head.)

But when is YOUR big day AOR? I'm glad you were able to add some version of Tetra, even though it is severely crippled and only operates in DMO (direct) mode.

When will we finally get to see P25 Phase 2 on our AOR DV1 radios? Patiently we have waited for this "SDR" (software-defined radio) to incorporate this useful new mode, and while Uniden and Whistler go ahead and give new goodies to their loyal followers, we sit here and wait for a useful new mode for us folks here in the U.S.

In fact, we are still here patiently waiting for you guys to straighten out the mess you made with CTCSS and DCS, which had been working fine until firmware botch-ups on either 1610B or 1611B, depending on who you listen to. Regardless, it has been a very frustrating misadventure--- something one would NOT expect from a company like AOR.

But aside from that, there is plenty of P25 Phase 2 usage here in the United States, so how about a Christmas surprise for us loyal AOR fans patiently sitting on the sidelines and waiting for a useful new mode from AOR? P25 Phase 2 would certainly make a wonderful Christmas gift.

 

[buddrousa]

AOR has never even supported analog trunking much less p25 trunking dmr trunking and I am sure they will not support NXDN trunking either.

 

[MStep]

AOR has never even supported analog trunking much less p25 trunking dmr trunking and I am sure they will not support NXDN trunking either.

I don't think that the OP was referring to "trunking". Sounds to me he was just asking for P25 Phase 2 reception, much as the radio does provide for P25 Phase 1 reception right now.

In fairness to AOR, they never "promised" P25 Phase 2 reception, although several references have been made to Phase 2 in various threads from users who had spoken to a number of AOR representatives over the past year who seemed to indicate that Phase 2 was on the "backburner" and one of the modes that they would like to have incorporated into the DV1.

I agree with Alex S that P25 Phase 2 would certainly be a useful mode for us listeners here in the United States, where it is beginning to be used extensively. Even without trunking, it would be nice to identify the mode of transmission and be able to catch some of the traffic from stations using Phase 2.

In terms of his comments regarding the issues that arose with CTC and DCS in both the 1610B and 1611B issues of the DV1 firmware, these appear to be rather unfortunate "side effects" of those firmware changes that were made in the radio and I have no doubt that AOR has the technical expertise to get those issues resolved.

 

[jack103]

Are there any phase 2 non trunking systems ?

 

[buddrousa]

This is a copy and paste from TAIT RADIO
It’s important to realize that Phase 2 is currently only available for trunked P25 operation. For radio to radio and conventional P25 operation, Phase 1 is still used.

 

[Alex_S]

Are there any phase 2 non trunking systems ?

Trunking has nothing to do with system discovery. The ability to monitor the content of a transmission, any transmission, be it from a trunked or non-trunked system, is of great importance to the serious radio enthusiast.

 

[buddrousa]

You are going to get several radio techs that will beg to differ to you. Then all you need is a windows 8 tablet $100 and 1 SDR $20 to do the same thing you just spent $1,000 on. But following a true conversation on a Analog Trunking, P25 Trunking, DMR Trunking, or NXDN Trunking is more for the serious radio enthusiast. My 1st scanner was in 1970 I have an Electronics degree have worked in a 2way radio shop, help administer an 7 channel trunking system and been a Fulltime Paid Firefighter for the last 34 years and did I mention I have a Ham License. I think make makes a serious radio enthusiast. I have 8 base scanners recording and logging data and 5 handheld scanners that use at the same time.

 

[Alex_S]

You are going to get several radio techs that will beg to differ to you. Then all you need is a windows 8 tablet $100 and 1 SDR $20 to do the same thing you just spent $1,000 on. But following a true conversation on a Analog Trunking, P25 Trunking, DMR Trunking, or NXDN Trunking is more for the serious radio enthusiast. My 1st scanner was in 1970 I have an Electronics degree have worked in a 2way radio shop, help administer an 7 channel trunking system and been a Fulltime Paid Firefighter for the last 34 years and did I mention I have a Ham License. I think make makes a serious radio enthusiast. I have 8 base scanners recording and logging data and 5 handheld scanners that use at the same time.

While your bonafides may be impressive, it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. The original post simply stated that AOR should (as many have asked before me) make P25 Phase 2 part of their DV1 system.

This has nothing to do with trunking or ham licenses, Windows 8 tablets, firefighting, or having 8 base scanners and 5 handhelds that you listen to all at the same time.

Why confuse the issue with all this useless information? Simply stated, the DV1 would be a more versatile scanner if it incorporated P25 Phase 2 along with P25 Phase 1. It's just that simple.

 

[buddrousa]

Because Phase 2 is P25 Trunking by design. Good luck on your endeavors.

 

[MStep]

The More Modes, The Better

In my mind, the more modes the DV1 can handle, the better. In fact, while the DV1 does not do trunked systems, there are some interesting "tricks" that one can do with the DV1 to monitor at least part of a trunked system.

Here in the NYC area, trunked systems use both P25 Phase 1 and Phase 2, (as well as DMR and other modes). By putting in all of the frequencies used at one of the local trunked sites, I can scan those frequencies and pick up enough of the traffic to figure out what is going on. In fact, by programming in the trunk input frequencies, I can pretty much track any activity occurring close to my location.

So there is some merit to having the DV1 be able to monitor P25 Phase 2, and while I generally listen to those systems on my Uniden receivers, I for one would not be adverse to have the DV1 do Phase 2--- at the least, it would help identify systems in my area that are using Phase 2, and at certain times, using some of my programming "tricks", it could serve well to monitor local activity on Phase 2 systems.

 

[rustynswrail]

...So there is some merit to having the DV1 be able to monitor P25 Phase 2, a...

I thought the point of the previous posts was to explain that the DV1 doesn't trunk therefore it cannot do Phase 2, which is trunking only. Basically No Trunking = No Phase 2.

Or have I missed something?

R

 

[AA6IO]

Taka at AOR Torrance suggested to me that P25 phase 2 would eventually come, but that was early on in the summer of 2015 when I would go to personally talk with him and suggest the need for trunking. A week later, the president of AOR made it clear to me and my colleagues on RRDB (via Taka) that there would be no trunking. Quote: "Basically, we (AOR) are not in the scanner business, we make receivers."
I countered that trunking is essential to VHF/UHF monitoring in the US. Maybe fine in Asia, Oceania, and Europe, but not here. I suppose that is why the AR-DV1 seems to me fairly popular in Europe, with fellows like Marlbrook investing his time developing software. It is what it is.
Going to now have the same thing with the ICOM R8600 and IC-R30, no trunking, no Phase 2 (I think), and no DMR (but pDMR). Again, it may be fine for other parts of world, but not much good here in US for serious UHF/VHF monitoring.
Think back to the Icom R7000, R8500, and R9500, all considered to be top notch receivers that included UHF/VHF. But that was 20 years ago or more. Of course they are good receivers, but without trunking and all the newer digital modes, not really that useful to many of us here in US nowadays.
I have to agree with Bud in post #7. To sit parked on a channel and get different digital modes, hard to beat a dongle or AirSpy and DSD-Plus. But of course, most of those modes are now trunking systems. I have yet really to see any SDR software that is convenient and useful for trunking or for that matter, even scanning. Of course it can be done, but not really handy.
And back to AOR. I really don't know why their engineers are having so many issues with their updated firmware. Enough ranting for this evening. Time to download NXDN for my TRX-1 and 2 and see how it works here in Los Angeles. We have quite a bit of NXDN, as we do of everything else (except ProVoice)

 

[MStep]

I thought the point of the previous posts was to explain that the DV1 doesn't trunk therefore it cannot do Phase 2, which is trunking only. Basically No Trunking = No Phase 2.

Or have I missed something?

R

Phase 2 is just another mode of P25---- it has nothing to do with trunking, except that here in the U.S., it is currently not used for anything but trunked systems.

The DV1 easily handles DMR, P25 Phase 1 and NXDN, all of which are used on both conventional and trunked systems. My guess, as I had originally stated sometime last year, was that the DV1 did not have the hardware to handle Phase 2.

I was surprised by Steve Sherman's post that the newer Icoms will not be trunk-capable either. Not that it's important, as long as we have the Uniden's (and Whistlers), both of which apparently handle trunked systems very well.

But it's nice once you tune into a digital system, for the receiver to be able to recognize what digital mode that it is. I use my DV1 at times as a "hunt & find" receiver, locating new signals/systems. It would be nice to recognize a Phase 2 signal/system.

As to Steve's comment about AOR having problems with their firmware updates, I am equally surprised. I would be happy if they just got their current software issues fixed in time for Christmas, but I'm not urging them to hurry anything through--- it's more important that they get it right this time without causing other issues.

 

[rustynswrail]

Well I guess Motorola trained me and a few other incorrectly.

P25 Phase 2 was developed for trunking systems using a 2-slot TDMA scheme. Phase 2 uses the AMBE+2 voice codec to reduce the needed bitrate so that one voice channel will only require 6,000 bits per second (including error correction and signalling). Phase 2 is not backwards compatible with Phase 1 (due to the TDMA vs FDMA operation), although TDMA radios and systems are capable of operating in Phase 1 FDMA when required. A subscriber radio cannot utilize TDMA transmissions without a time source, therefore direct radio to radio communications (talkaround) resorts to FDMA.

There is that annoying word "trunking" again.

R

 

[buddrousa]

The AOR does only 1 type of NXDN unless the firmware was updated and I missed reading that post.

 

[MStep]

I have to 'fess up to not having all of the technical knowledge of others here on the boards. I can only hope that AOR is true to their word when they say that they are trying to incorporate other modes of operation into the DV1, including P25 Phase 2.

I suspected from the outset that their may have been limitations in the hardware which would prevent that from happening. I certainly accept the fact the "trunking" (ala Uniden) will never come to the DV1, and that the unit was built as a wideband, general coverage receiver, which is more geared to modes that are used by amateur radio operators.

If Steve Sherman's comments are correct about the Icom R8600, it will also not include trunking, and follow a similar philosophy to the DV1 in appealing more the the amateur radio crowd as a wideband, general coverage receiver, albeit with more "bells & whistles" than the DV1. (That's an awfully nice looking waterfall display scope!)

I can understand the OP's (Alex_S) "challenge" to AOR, given several of the past threads that Phase 2 was being studied. I am extremely happy with my DV1, and I was happy for the folks in Europe and Asia got at least some limited coverage of the Tetra mode, although there seems to be little feedback from folks about how effective it is in real use. At least there is a demo of Tetra being received by the DV1 posted on YouTube.

In the final analysis, I think that one or two of the folks at AOR really know the true capability of the DV1. And until the Icom R8600 makes its debut, we might not really know the direction of the SDR in terms of true monitoring capability.

 

[rustynswrail]

Am I correct in assuming the point you and others are making is, if the DV1 lands on a frequency of unknown origin, you want the receiver to tell you what mode it is receiving, rrespective of the fact that it is trunking or not?

You don't want it to trunk (although that would be nice) you just want the reception mode?

As Phase 2 is trunking it relies on a number of other factors in the network to work, I don't think a 'conventional Phase 2' mode is possible. I will stand corrected on that. Phase 2 P25 is TDMA but TDMA ain't TDMA. What I mean by that is, just because the DV1 is capable of receiving DMR (TDMA) doesn't mean it has the hardware to receive Phase 2 P25 TDMA, despite sharing the same Vocoder. Again I will accept it maybe possible as I have not delved into the AOR deeply enough to say with certain.

R

 

[MStep]

Am I correct in assuming the point you and others are making is, if the DV1 lands on a frequency of unknown origin, you want the receiver to tell you what mode it is receiving, rrespective of the fact that it is trunking or not?

You don't want it to trunk (although that would be nice) you just want the reception mode?

As Phase 2 is trunking it relies on a number of other factors in the network to work, I don't think a 'conventional Phase 2' mode is possible. I will stand corrected on that. Phase 2 P25 is TDMA but TDMA ain't TDMA. What I mean by that is, just because the DV1 is capable of receiving DMR (TDMA) doesn't mean it has the hardware to receive Phase 2 P25 TDMA, despite sharing the same Vocoder. Again I will accept it maybe possible as I have not delved into the AOR deeply enough to say with certain.

Yes, that is the original intent of many looking for Phase 2--- they don't need it to trunk, they just need it to decode. Just as it does with P25 Phase 1 signals.

Steve Sherman first mentioned in his conversations with Taka at AOR in Torrance, CA, that AOR was studying the feasibility of incorporating Phase 2 (this was many months ago). At that time I wondered whether the DV1 has the necessary hardware to do Phase 2. So you've summed it up nicely rustynswrail--- we understand that the DV1 will never do trunking, but reception of a Phase 2 signal would be nice.

It's possible that AOR is a little "gunshy" right now--- after adding the Tetra mode, they ran into some unexpected problems with the menu system and now with ID'ing tones when doing a CTC or DCS Search with the radio in "Auto" mode. Nevertheless, Taka has also told me on a number of occasions that the issue with Phase 2 is under review, and I have to take him at his word.

Regardless of whether Phase 2 ever comes to fruition of not, the DV1 remains a wonderful receiver--- truly versatile in what it can do and a marvelous piece of engineering work. They say that "imitation is the greatest form of flattery"--- I along with many others eagerly await the release of the Icom R8600 to see whether Icom has met the standard set by AOR with the DV1.

 

[marlbrook]

Oh Well

As far as Firmware upgrade problems are concerned, AOR are not alone. Whistler issued a new mode firmware upgrade a few days ago, and guess what, it is producing unexpected bad knock on effects. With all the in-built complicated programming that is present now, it is not surprising.

When I bought my AR-DV1, like most I researched as much as I could, and decided to take the plunge because of what it was supposed to do, and by and large it does those thing, pretty well. Since it was released AOR have definitley improved on that. I am not interested in Trunking, but would love a radio that could de-crypt any form of encryption, instantly, lol. I knew the AR-DV1 could not do that, and I am not going to fret over the fact it is unlikely ever to be able to (or any other radio).

Perhaps it is time we stopped bemoaning the things the AR-DV1 does not do, and be at least a little amazed at all the things that have been crammed into that little footprint.

Hope everyone has a good Christmas.

 

[buddrousa]

I am not knocking what it will not do I am simply stating that P25 Phase 2 is currently a Trunking standard and the APX7000 and AMX8000 only do P25 Phase 2 in Trunking and P25 Phase 1 in Repeater or Simplex Mode.