Which digi mode will win out in the end????

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rapidcharger

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If there is a conversation in progress on Slot 1 and I want to call someone who isn't part of the conversation, how do I do that? If he's listening to the conversation on Slot 1, how do I call him, I assume using Slot 2, and get him to hear my call.)))
The way we've been doing it now that our usual time slot is linked in to a statewide network and has more traffic, is we just say "I'll meet you on DMR, and if slot 2 is busy, I'll be on slot 1". Its not because we don't want to be social but rather we don't want to interrupt someone else's conversation to talk about something completely unrelated.

If my radio had a display and a keypad, we could make use of the messaging.

"Individual call" can take place on the same repeater instead of group call even though that may be frowned upon by the repeater owner.

And I guess if all of that fails, you can interrupt to conversation to make contact with who you're calling and tell them to switch to slot 2.



That's my concern. D-STAR, I believe, already practices a bit of this in that if you aren't registered, you can't use the network features. If I put up a DMR system and told the local hams they had to register in order to even put out their callsign on the repeater, I think I'd be labeled as an elitist snob.
See my above reply.
By the way you don't have to require hams to register for a local digital repeater. If it's tied into one of the networks then maybe but its your repeater, you can do what you want.
 
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Let me be clear.
I do not support closed / private systems in the ham band.
I agree and I am hoping that Bearcat with the new digital scanner they are releasing includes the abilty to monitor DSTAR repeaters and all other formats. I think there was a DSTAR user group that felt they had some privacy on the ham band. I know DSTAR is an open standard, but I think that this a gray area.


Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in Section 97.113; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as provided for space telecommand (see Section 97.211(b)), telecommand of model craft (seeSection 97.215(b)), and RTTY and data emission codes (see Section 97.3090
 
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N8OHU

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I agree and I am hoping that Bearcat with the new digital scanner they are releasing includes the abilty to monitor DSTAR repeaters and all other formats. I think there was a DSTAR user group that felt they had some privacy on the ham band. I know DSTAR is an open standard, but I think that this a gray area.
No grey areas here; see below.


Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in Section 97.113; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as provided for space telecommand (see Section 97.211(b)), telecommand of model craft (seeSection 97.215(b)), and RTTY and data emission codes (see Section 97.3090
Music wouldn't be worth listening in a 2400 bps data format, quite honestly. The "codes and ciphers" part doesn't apply, since equipment or software to decode the audio data stream is readily available; it's meant in the sense of files or text messages that can't be read except by the sender and receiver, so that more or less rules out the other part. The last part doesn't really apply, since the D-STAR protocol is publicly documented, and the AMBE vocoder has been documented as well as at least part of the patent process.
 
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No grey areas here; see below.




Music wouldn't be worth listening in a 2400 bps data format, quite honestly. The "codes and ciphers" part doesn't apply, since equipment or software to decode the audio data stream is readily available; it's meant in the sense of files or text messages that can't be read except by the sender and receiver, so that more or less rules out the other part. The last part doesn't really apply, since the D-STAR protocol is publicly documented, and the AMBE vocoder has been documented as well as at least part of the patent process.
The problem is that are few off the shelf receivers or scanners that can listen to DSTAR transmissions versus scanners that are P25 capable out of the box. So in reality the the documented protocol does not mean anything. I know there are dongles out that there work with some scanners but they take work and configuration that the average person will not go through listen to DSTAR transmissions. Yes it is a grey area if the DSTAR users know that there are fewer listeners they will feel like that the have more private frequency that fewer people will be listening to.
 
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N8OHU

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Let me be clear.
I do not support closed / private systems in the ham band.

But there is a difference between THAT and having control over a system that can disrupt an entire worldwide network. Requiring someone to get an ID number from a totally unrelated 3rd party that doesn't do any screening whatsoever other than to make sure you're a ham, in no way, shape or form, makes that a closed system in my view.
Agreed.

As for privacy, the DMR-MARC, Hytera DMR and the NXDN network has live streams of the worldwide talkgroups on the internet for everyone to listen to.
There are some live feeds for D-STAR systems as well, from what I've seen. Not many take the time to set this up, but it's fairly easy to do.

And as for undesirable elements, aside from that closed system I was referring to which is actually in another state and perhaps that's the reason they didn't give me access, I don't know of any such screening. A couple of our most notorious local troublemakers on analog, whom we all know who they are, actually have marc IDs but don't have radios. Yet. I'm sure that they could behave differently on the system and not have any problems but if they start pulling the same antics they do on analog, I'm sure they would be gone in a jiffy.
Understood, and this isn't a bad thing; the problem is that the closed source D-STAR stuff is designed in such a way that it locks people out of using the network unless they are registered (local repeater use is still possible), or potentially if someone doesn't like them. There is even one open source D-STAR reflector that requires registration before you can even link your system to it; since I don't speak their native language, I don't feel left out because I can't listen in.

Another thing to remember is it's possible to use different talk groups can be used unbeknownst to a repeater owner. In order to maintain control, talkgroups need to be limited and it helps to know who is using your system.
Having control of what talk groups are available on your system is something I agree with, since the more you allow, the more bandwidth is needed by the repeater systems to adequately handle the traffic.
 

N8OHU

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The problem is that are few off the shelf receivers or scanners that can listen to DSTAR transmissions versus scanners that are P25 capable out of the box. So in reality the the documented protocol does not mean anything. I know there are dongles out that there work with some scanners but they take work and configuration that the average person will not go through listen to DSTAR transmissions. Yes it is a grey area if the DSTAR users know that there are fewer listeners they will feel like that the have more private frequency that fewer people will be listening to.
See my answer to rapidcharger; it's possible to let analog only scanner owners listen in, but not everyone takes the time to link the digital stuff over to an analog frequency. And, there are ways to set up live feeds so others can listen in wherever they happen to be.
 

MTS2000des

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See my answer to rapidcharger; it's possible to let analog only scanner owners listen in, but not everyone takes the time to link the digital stuff over to an analog frequency. And, there are ways to set up live feeds so others can listen in wherever they happen to be.
This is exactly what our friends at Yaesu "The Radio" are attempting to accomplish with System Fusion.

Integrating analog and digital users on the SAME repeater. This way, an analog user can hear the "digital difference" when his fellow hams using a "C4FM FDMA (dPMR)" Yaesu subscriber radio in the digital mode and still be able to communicate. The System Fusion repeater is also cross band and has network connectivity (WiRES 2) regardless of whether a user is analog or digital.

At first I scoffed at the notion of "another digital format" but it is clear Yaesu is at least trying to do exactly this: bridge digital and analog users.
 

N8OHU

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This is exactly what our friends at Yaesu "The Radio" are attempting to accomplish with System Fusion.

Integrating analog and digital users on the SAME repeater. This way, an analog user can hear the "digital difference" when his fellow hams using a "C4FM FDMA (dPMR)" Yaesu subscriber radio in the digital mode and still be able to communicate. The System Fusion repeater is also cross band and has network connectivity (WiRES 2) regardless of whether a user is analog or digital.

At first I scoffed at the notion of "another digital format" but it is clear Yaesu is at least trying to do exactly this: bridge digital and analog users.
It's technically possible to do this with D-STAR, since that included a "Digital Bridge" mode in the specification. And this is how the Amateur Radio Experimenter's Corner system works with Analog and Digital radios; someone took the time to at least partially implement this functionality in an add-on module for AllStar Link. It can be done for the repeaters themselves, I suppose, but to my knowledge no one has done it.
 

AA9VI

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I would be curious to know how much DSTAR repeaters are actually being used. There are several here in my area that go for days and weeks with little or no activity. I am wondering if there is any way to track usage of these machines.
Bingo. It's sad, but true. The problem there has mostly to due with the admins selecting repeaters being stand-alone by default and not linked to regional subnetworks. What we do with DMR-MARC is we have a 4 (and sometimes 5) level connection scheme. Of course, we have one more voice channel due to TDMA and that helps but we have talkgroups for local, regional, (some systems have statewide also), we have national, and international.

So, by default you are locked into a reflector arrangement on at least one time slot, and a part time reflector on another. So, you have a choice: Do I key up a few repeaters at a time, 10, 100, or 200? This keeps the PA warm and the repeater is used often. What D-Star has is too many statewide talkgroups/reflectors with one 2-3 repeaters on them with 2-3 users for each repeater. The users are splintered in 100 directions versus DMR which maybe less than 6 in most cases. It's be smart to link D-Star repeaters to regional reflectors.

The sad thing is that there is a movement to make some DMR systems (not DMR-MARC) to be D-Star Lite-like systems and relearn the same mistakes that the op mentions in the quote.
 

AA9VI

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If there is a conversation in progress on Slot 1 and I want to call someone who isn't part of the conversation, how do I do that? If he's listening to the conversation on Slot 1, how do I call him, I assume using Slot 2, and get him to hear my call.
Three choices:
1) join the conversation on slot 1 and make it a roundtable. The more the merrier.
2) Jump in on slot 1 and ask your buddy to move to TS2. If he is regional, statewide, or local, you call your buddy on the regional, statewide, or local talkgroups on slot 2. The two QSOs will occur harmoniously on the two separate slots (voice channels). This happens ALL the time on DMR-MARC. We have guys that JUST hang out on local/regional slot 2.
3) text message your friend on TS1 to join you on TS2. The new Motorola radios allow you to LITERALLY make this a one button action!

Remember I mentioned you can control how many repeaters you light up? So in this case, TS2 can bring up 1, 5, or 15 repeaters depending on what talkgroup you use. (just an example... those numbers can easily be 4, 10, and 30)
 
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N8OHU

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Bingo. It's sad, but true. The problem there has mostly to due with the admins selecting repeaters being stand-alone by default and not linked to regional subnetworks. What we do with DMR-MARC is we have a 4 (and sometimes 5) level connection scheme. Of course, we have one more voice channel due to TDMA and that helps but we have talkgroups for local, regional, (some systems have statewide also), we have national, and international.
There might be a couple of reasons that a given D-STAR repeater isn't connected to a reflector; no internet at the site if it's a new repeater, it's used for EmComm and only used for drills and actual incidents, or they simply do not wish to be linked full time to a reflector.

So, by default you are locked into a reflector arrangement on at least one time slot, and a part time reflector on another. So, you have a choice: Do I key up a few repeaters at a time, 10, 100, or 200? This keeps the PA warm and the repeater is used often. What D-Star has is too many statewide talkgroups/reflectors with one 2-3 repeaters on them with 2-3 users for each repeater. The users are splintered in 100 directions versus DMR which maybe less than 6 in most cases. It's be smart to link D-Star repeaters to regional reflectors.
And in many cases, the users of D-STAR repeaters have at least some freedom to link and unlink the reflector and talk on any reflector they wish, especially in areas where there are a lot of users of a given repeater. And, for what it's worth, there are usually DExtra Reflectors that have at least 8 full time links, with numerous other repeaters that link up for certain nets.

The sad thing is that there is a movement to make some DMR systems (not DMR-MARC) to be D-Star Lite-like systems and relearn the same mistakes that the op mentions in the quote.
I don't think that's it, to be honest; I suspect that there are a lot of users that would like the option of checking into nets held on other talk groups, instead of only talking to hams in other parts of the US on the North American Talk Group all the time. I know that I enjoy hearing from one ham that I know that lives in Australia when he checks in on the Ohio Wide D-STAR net on Sunday evenings local time (which for him is about 9 AM his time).
 

kb1isz

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The sad thing is that there is a movement to make some DMR systems (not DMR-MARC) to be D-Star Lite-like systems and relearn the same mistakes that the op mentions in the quote.
Mike,
If you are commenting on the Hytera DMR network it is sort of like a hybrid.

Think of the same talk group routing structure full time as it exists today but being able to adhoc link repeaters as well.

Here's an example, today if I wanted to talk to someone in Austria I would have to bring up all the repeaters in the world for the entire QSO. With this model I would bring up all the repeaters and say meet me in room 401. Then just our two repeaters would be linked. After a few minutes of inactivity they would automatically unlink.

I can see some advantages but also some disadvantages. I guess time will tell if it is popular or not.
Thanks,
Will
 
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The problem is that are few off the shelf receivers or scanners that can listen to DSTAR transmissions versus scanners that are P25 capable out of the box. So in reality the the documented protocol does not mean anything. I know there are dongles out that there work with some scanners but they take work and configuration that the average person will not go through listen to DSTAR transmissions. Yes it is a grey area if the DSTAR users know that there are fewer listeners they will feel like that the have more private frequency that fewer people will be listening to.
There is no problem. Scanning and ham are hobbies. Some hobbyist are more motivated than others to accomplish given levels of particitapion in these hobbies, beyond just buying a box and turning it on. That there are few scanners that can reveive D-STAR is a function of the market place, not some grey area conspiracy to get a more private frequency.

The FCC sees no problem with the protocol, and that is the real "reality", with no shades of grey anywhere to be seen.

Why would anyone care if a D-STAR user thought they had a "more private frequency that fewer people will be listening to"? That user is a fool and tool rolled into one. Listen to them and laugh. Any radio user, Ham or otherwise, who would think this way doesn't understand the technology in their hand. I don't know a single Ham who thinks this way, and I know Hams using D-STAR, MotoTurbo, and P25. Some of them may be overly proud of a chosen mode, but hey, whatever. There's room for all to play.
 

thos12374

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Hi All,
From what I have seen or experienced, each mode will find a place within the greater market based on the various forms of support. I put up an NXDN machine in my area primarily because of availability and the fact that I already had the ability to use the system. Others will do the same in their respective areas primarily because of what is currently in use by the local organizations. Larger counties can support more than one digital mode and that will provide equal growth. Others will be limited and will choose a communications mode based on personal preference and hope for the best. I am in the latter category and hope that my decision to go with NXDN will further progress the digital trend rather than to create more issues within my community.

Thom KF4I
 

N1XDS

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Depends on the area and what all ham members want in a digital mode for Amateur Radio use. In my area there is some D-Star, P25, MotoTRBO and NXDN. There is some use during the day on P25 and NXDN in my area depends on the day normally its busy on the local NXDN system here in Tampa where I live but at times there will be no activity on the local NXDN linked system. I listen to the local NXDN system and try to talk or find someone to talk I normally talk to guys in the New England states sometimes I speak to KF4I over in Palm Coast, Florida when he's around.

Like I said it all depends on the area and choice on what to go with on digital mode
 

k3td

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Bingo. It's sad, but true. The problem there has mostly to due with the admins selecting repeaters being stand-alone by default and not linked to regional subnetworks. What we do with DMR-MARC is we have a 4 (and sometimes 5) level connection scheme. Of course, we have one more voice channel due to TDMA and that helps but we have talkgroups for local, regional, (some systems have statewide also), we have national, and international.

So, by default you are locked into a reflector arrangement on at least one time slot, and a part time reflector on another. So, you have a choice: Do I key up a few repeaters at a time, 10, 100, or 200? This keeps the PA warm and the repeater is used often. What D-Star has is too many statewide talkgroups/reflectors with one 2-3 repeaters on them with 2-3 users for each repeater. The users are splintered in 100 directions versus DMR which maybe less than 6 in most cases. It's be smart to link D-Star repeaters to regional reflectors.

The sad thing is that there is a movement to make some DMR systems (not DMR-MARC) to be D-Star Lite-like systems and relearn the same mistakes that the op mentions in the quote.
I'm not active on DMR (yet) but believe this is one of the big advantages of DMR and especially DMR-MARC. If we get a DMR-MARC repeater in the Austin, TX area I'll definitely pick up a MOTOTRBO mobile. Will you guys have a booth again this year at Dayton? The folks there last year were great and helped me get a much better understanding of the network.
 

W9JY

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I think the sub $200 CS700 DMR HT will add even more users to the mode. I prefer Motorola gear myself but I think an inexpensive entry level radio will appeal to the masses. Anything that gets more users on DMR is a good thing in my opinion.
 

rapidcharger

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In the future it won't really matter.
The networks that want to exclude anything but their own will continue to do so but as we're finding out is you can patch it all together. NXDN, DMR, Analog, P25, it doesn't matter what works best for you. It can all be interoperable if you so choose. All you need is a willingness to do that.
 

N8OHU

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In the future it won't really matter.
The networks that want to exclude anything but their own will continue to do so but as we're finding out is you can patch it all together. NXDN, DMR, Analog, P25, it doesn't matter what works best for you. It can all be interoperable if you so choose. All you need is a willingness to do that.
Exactly. That's why things like EchoIRLP and the Amateur Radio Experimenter's Corner exist; hams in various parts of the world understand that hams want to communicate and have made it possible for different Radio over IP systems to communicate as smoothly as possible.
 

Denverpilot

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In the future it won't really matter.

The networks that want to exclude anything but their own will continue to do so but as we're finding out is you can patch it all together. NXDN, DMR, Analog, P25, it doesn't matter what works best for you. It can all be interoperable if you so choose. All you need is a willingness to do that.

Ironically the lingua franca between them all is still analog. To "patch" digitally requires the CODEC be openly designed, and none are.

Twiddling the bits is easy if the standard is open. Easy enough that there's no money in it. And infrastructure building, is all about money.
 
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