Which Mode Will Sound The Best (Most Natural)?

[JASII]

I was tuning in the International Tech-Talk this afternoon.

As readers can see, there are many different ways to tune in.

Which mode(s) are likely to sound the best (most natural)?

The Mode Audio Quality area in the link below indicates that D-Star is Fair, DMR is Good and Fusion is Best.

P25, NXDN and M17 are also choices, too.

https://charlottedstar.org/Comparison%20of%20Amateur%20Radio%20DV%20Systems%202020.pdf

 

[mmckenna]

NXDN, if it's the 12.5KHz mode, will have more bandwidth to run higher bit rates. Audio on NXDN, running 12.5KHz mode, uses a bit under 9.6KB/sec, which usually sounds quite a bit better than DMR. Of course it depends on who set up the repeater, radio, etc.

 

[prcguy]

I played with a couple of higher end Yaesu Fusion, Icom D-Star and Motorola P25 radios at the same time on simplex. Basically no difference in audio, you can't tell them apart. If you go to a lower tier Yaesu like the FT-70DR Fusion or a police scanner on P25 then those modes will suffer some audio quality. So basically there is more differences in the specific model radios you use than the three digital modes I mentioned.

 

[vagrant]

I can hear the difference between Fusion, D-Star, DMR and P25. The winner for me is P25 with Fusion VW mode second. Still, as others have noted the radios you use make a big difference. I am not a fan of DMR due to the absolute junk radios using that mode. With that in mind I heard a Kenwood NX5300 series radio on DMR and it was fantastic. His radio audio matched his voice quite a bit. I don't know if I was so impressed how well it sounded, or if it really sounds better than his Moto APX8K P25 which costs so much more.

I am definitely going to support mmckenna's vast experience over mine, as my testing with NXDN is zero. Still, if amateurs were using some Kenwood NXxxx future dual band radio with DMR I would be a DMR fan versus my disdain for it now.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

"Which Mode Will Sound The Best (Most Natural)?"​

Wideband FM of course. 16K0F3E, 20K0F3E. Take your pick..

 

[alcahuete]

If you're discussing this on a ham radio net, then the results are already biased. The hams are likely going off the ham radio "versions" of those modes, and unfortunately have some craptastic ham radios and internet latency to affect their opinion. Ham DMR, for example, is chock full of CCRs (Cheap Chinese Radios) that are going to sound like CCRs.

I promise you that DMR set up properly with real radios (NX5300 like @vagrant mentioned above, Motos, etc.) sounds great. But on the various ham networks, I'd probably put it last...maybe right above D-Star.

 

[brushfire21]

I will second a few other posters, it comes down to radio and which generation. I have experience with NXDN and DMR. First Gen. NXDN equipment doesn't sound as good tx/rx wise as do the current generation of radios. Repeater equipment also plays a role in audio IMO.

CCR radios do not have as good as quality usually as the big brand models IMO and users have no clue how to check and adjust mic levels.

If all things being equal, I will second the 12.5khz NXDN but feel 6.25 is a close second. I'm now just starting to play with P25 and having fun with that right now and looking at getting a Quantar to play with on a site.

 

[mmckenna]

If all things being equal, I will second the 12.5khz NXDN but feel 6.25 is a close second. I'm now just starting to play with P25 and having fun with that right now and looking at getting a Quantar to play with on a site.

A good speaker makes a big difference on a mobile.
I had to swap out a radio in the work truck. That freed up a big Motorola speaker that I connected to the Kenwood NX-900.
The NX-900 had a KES-3 on it previously, and it sounded good. The bigger speaker made it sound even better.

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again:
I run an NXDN trunked system, as well as some narrow band analog systems at work.
Same dispatchers on both systems, same consoles, same microphones.
For a long time, I was running an NX-700 for VHF and an NX-900 for 800. The VHF systems at work are all analog. The 800 system is 12.5KHz NXDN.
It is -real- hard to tell the difference between the two with all things being equal.

Two weeks ago I pulled the NX-700 out and put a Harris XL-200M in its place. The Harris has the external speaker they sell with the radio.
The analog sounds even better on that radio than the previous Kenwood.

Properly set up radios make a huge difference. Good speakers make a huge difference.
POS CCR's don't even come close.

 

[jeepsandradios]

P25 on ham is the best in my opinion. DMR has turned in to the CCR junk land. Between crappy dmr radios and hot spots all over most just sounds bad. Only D Star I ever touched was the original radio at IWCE years ago.

 

[tweiss3]

I agree with @mmckenna, a good speaker helps immensely. But it also should be noted, all the portables (even with external speakers) sound pretty rough in an enclosed hard surface room.

I also agree with @jeepsandradios, the way DMR has ended up leaves a lot to be desired. The lack of auto tx/rx audio leveling on the CCR crowd, mixed with the lack of proper setup for audio gain levels makes for a really bad experience. Though, since moving to Mototrbo & Kenwood, you can still tell who didn't setup the radio probably, but it no longer blows out an eardrum going from one with low levels to one with over driven levels.

Personally, the sound of digital modes from best to worst is NXDN - P25 - YSF - DStar - DMR. DMR is last because it's the most used with the most number of incorrectly configured goons. The difference between NXDN and P25 is extremely minimal, with NXDN just barely edging over P25. I did a test on VHF from NX5700 to my NX5200 and had the 5200 record audio, and you can just barely hear the difference in the recordings. I was of course using 6.25 NXDN, but it does sound better on 12.5.

Again, absolutely ALL of these modes sound infinitely better WITHOUT internet linking. Either simplex, or basic unlinked repeater, with the proper equipment sounds pretty darn good.

EDIT: The engineer in my head wishes NXDN was used more. The audio quality vs bandwidth is leaps ahead of the other modes.

 

[KC3AWP]

Ill jump in on the NXDN bandwagon. Especially on the higher end Kenwoods where audio profiles are available.

A good speaker makes a big difference on a mobile.
I had to swap out a radio in the work truck. That freed up a big Motorola speaker that I connected to the Kenwood NX-900.
The NX-900 had a KES-3 on it previously, and it sounded good. The bigger speaker made it sound even better....

This is true as well. Also @mmckenna is there an advantage of a Moto speaker comparable to a KES-5 vs the KES-5 itself? Ive always felt the KES-5 was to bass-ey and seemed muffled on analog compared to a few Motorola ext. speakers that were too much of a PITA to replace so we just reused. (the ext. speakers were /\/\ Jedi era) I see a lot of people using Moto ext. speakers on everything. I did set up a Public Works truck with a KES-3 (NX700) and it didn't sound bad but I felt like the quality was about what I could get a local truck stop CB joint.

 

[mmckenna]

Ill jump in on the NXDN bandwagon. Especially on the higher end Kenwoods where audio profiles are available.


This is true as well. Also @mmckenna is there an advantage of a Moto speaker comparable to a KES-5 vs the KES-5 itself? Ive always felt the KES-5 was to bass-ey and seemed muffled on analog compared to a few Motorola ext. speakers that were too much of a PITA to replace so we just reused. (the ext. speakers were /\/\ Jedi era) I see a lot of people using Moto ext. speakers on everything. I did set up a Public Works truck with a KES-3 (NX700) and it didn't sound bad but I felt like the quality was about what I could get a local truck stop CB joint.

I've got a KES-5 sitting in my garage, but I've never used it. We have them in the patrol cars, and the sound fine, maybe a bit bass heavy.

On my work and personal trucks, I had Motorola speakers installed, and never changed them out. Was just easier to solder on a new connector to match the radio. The NX-700 that was in the work truck might get moved over to my personal truck to replace the CDM-1550 that I've had for about 10 years. Just need to find the time and good weather to do it.

The KES-3 is not made by Kenwood. It's a common speaker design sold by many companies. Just a small speaker in a small box. Not impressive, but "good enough" for many.

Both the KES-5 and the traditional Motorola speakers are pretty well regarded as being good. Some day I'll try the KES-5 in my personal truck.

The Harris speaker seems to be pretty good, also. Probably not as easy to find those on the used market, as compared to the Motorola speakers.

 

[K7MEM]

On my radio desk, I use the center speaker from a old RCA surround sound system. I feed it with an old PA amp that I refurbished. The PA amp has multiple inputs, bass and treble controls, and audio override so I can hear any 2-Meter traffic that is available. I also have several other speakers (Heathkit, etc. ), but none sounds as good at that RCA center speaker.

 

[Kd8lzl]

I'm convinced that the speakers make the difference as well. I remembered dstar sounding so robotic when it first came out. Years later I bought a th-d74a but dstar was a afterthought. Playing around one day I connected a bluetooth speaker to it and tuned in to the local dstar repeater. Sounds pretty good. Then I adjusted the eq for recieve. Sounds great. Then I plugged my decent headphones into my scanner. Sounds great! I never thought a speaker or headphones would have made such a difference. I would say that the p25 system in my area Sounds more natural than any ham stuff.

 

[jazzboypro]

Been listening to NXDN for the past few days. I'm using an openspot3 with an ID-52 to connect to different TG's. I have not head much so far most seem to be crossmoding from D-Star to NXDN so what i've heard does not sound any better or worse than the other digital modes.

There are only 2 NXDN repeaters and 1 P25 repeater in my region and they are too far for me to hit them with a handheld radio. When considering the price of good NXDN/P25 equipment and the lack of activity/repeaters on those mode is not really worth it for me at the moment. Maybe someday !

 

[hp8920]

There's basically one codec with 2.5 bitrates being used over five modes (DMR, P25, D-Star, Fusion, NXDN). Voice quality is determined by the codec and specific radios. If you take the radio out of the equation, assuming good BER, modes that use the same codec modes will sound the same.

D-Star uses AMBE at 3600 bps (2400 speech + 1200 FEC)

DMR, Fusion DN mode, NXDN 6.25 kHz, P25 Phase II TDMA all use AMBE+2 Half Rate (2450 speech + 1150 FEC = 3600 bps)

Current P25 Phase I/FDMA, NXDN 12.5 kHz, and Fusion VW mode use AMBE+2 Full Rate (4400 speech + 2800 FEC = 7200 bps )

Older P25 radios used IMBE 7.2 kbps, AMBE+2 is fully backwards compatible with IMBE (only encoder changes were made). I believe newer D-Star units use AMBE+2. Fusion DN adds its own 1800 bps of FEC on top of AMBE's, so it will do better in weak signal than other AMBE+2 Half Rate. Motorola's MOTOTRBO has a proprietary feature called trill enhancement which improves quality on some languages if enabled.

Going from AMBE+2 half rate to full rate in a clean speech and channels will have minimal effect. The key is AMBE+2 full rate does better in fading/multipath RF channels, as well as noisy backgrounds, such as saws, sirens, firefighter PASS alarms, and gunshots.