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Which Of The Big Three Japanese Amateur Radio Manufacturers Will Start Adding DMR First?

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#42
Aside from the Big 3, what about Alinco?

They have a DMR product line that is a mix of handhelds, mobiles (though appear to be single band), and a repeater. They also show a NXDN handheld.

Or... Am I opening a can of worms that I shouldn't be?
 

vagrant

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#43
I would enjoy a Kenwood 5300 series-ish amateur version radio that provided analog, P25 & DMR, as well as VHF and UHF. I know of only myself and two others that would be willing to buy that. I would also pay for a license upgrade if my D74A could do DMR.

I do not have interest in a handheld the Big3 would offer that only does DMR and analog. I also do not see them matching the cost off CCR's already available. DMR is best for commercial service anyways. If I had a nickle for every amateur operator that does not understand how to program their DMR radio, things would be wonderful on this end.
 

vagrant

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#45
In all honesty, when I first used Motorola CPS without any experience or training, it did give me pause. I then opened up the config for a different radio and figured things out. A CCR DMR radio I own can export/import Excel spreadsheets. I did not use that as the software is pretty easy to program, but I would say they are making things easier. In fact, the CCR radio I purchased came with a basic codeplug in order to help the end user figure it out.

The easiest digital mode radio I have used is Yaesu Fusion. Just enter the freq and you're good. No CTCSS or DCS to enter either. It seems to me like the loudest crying against Yaesu do not understand it, as they also have trouble with their DMR setup. I do not blame them for not understanding the programming for DMR, again it is not meant for amateur radio whereas Fusion and D-Star are.
 

buddrousa

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#46
The last time I looked at my copy of the DHS Handbook what was listed was ANALOG and P25 both repeated and DIRECT TALK AROUND.
Below is from the newest copy of the DHS Radio Handbook.
Field Operations Guides
The convention calls for frequency lists to show four digits after the decimal place, followed by either a "U", “N”, or “W”, depending on whether the frequency isultranarrow, narrow, or wide band. Mode refers to either “A” or “D” indicating analog or digital (e.g. Project 25) or "M" indicating mixed mode. All channels are shownas if programmed in a control station, mobile or portable radio. Repeater (and depending on use, base stations) must be programmed with the Rx and Tx reversed."Tactical Repeater" as used here means a temorarily deployed transportable repeater, station class FB2T.
 

W9BU

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#47
They also have to consider people thinking "I paid $600 for this and it doesn't even do DMR? You mean I still have to buy (and carry) another radio to deal with DMR?"
"Deal with DMR". You make it sound like a bad thing. Like having to deal with a used car salesman. ;)

I know several hams who have D74s. I have not heard one of them say "I paid $600 for this and it doesn't even do DMR?" We all bought the radio for other reasons and even the fact that it has D-STAR was pretty far down that list of reasons. You seem to assume that every amateur radio operator wants a handheld radio that does DMR. I don't think that's anywhere close to a true statement.

Kenwood, and Icom, and Yaesu, have all made decisions about what digital voice modes to offer in their amateur radio product line. They all decided against DMR. To the best of my knowledge, none of those manufacturers are going broke. I reserve the right to be surprised if one of them does offer a DMR amateur radio in the future, but, IMHO, I don't think we'll ever see that happen.
 
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#48
Kenwood, and Icom, and Yaesu, have all made decisions about what digital voice modes to offer in their amateur radio product line. They all decided against DMR. To the best of my knowledge, none of those manufacturers are going broke. I reserve the right to be surprised if one of them does offer a DMR amateur radio in the future, but, IMHO, I don't think we'll ever see that happen.
Spot on. I would not hold my breath for the big three to make a DMR capable hammy(VFO, part 97 Frequencies only).


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Joined
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#49
"Deal with DMR". You make it sound like a bad thing. Like having to deal with a used car salesman. ;)

I know several hams who have D74s. I have not heard one of them say "I paid $600 for this and it doesn't even do DMR?" We all bought the radio for other reasons and even the fact that it has D-STAR was pretty far down that list of reasons. You seem to assume that every amateur radio operator wants a handheld radio that does DMR. I don't think that's anywhere close to a true statement.
Of course not everyone wants DMR, but it's also really far from false that nobody wants DMR. It even seems that if Dstar was replaced with DMR in those D74s you're talking about, most wouldn't even care Dstar was missing, except for the companies that were involved with licensing Dstar.

Really from what I've been reading and typical use at least locally, there are more people who couldn't care less if Dstar disappeared and replaced with DMR because few if any are actually experimenting with Dstar functionality. Seems almost like a novelty than something people could use every day. I'd say there are many more people using DMR on ham every day, at least around here, compared to people using Dstar every day - mostly due to the proliferation of cheap radios. This has an impact on repeater deployment which causes a self reinforcing loop that leaves the big 3 radios to analog.

Interoperability is also a radio to radio issue, nevermind differing entities that chose incompatible standards. Granted if the big 3 budge, it would mean the big three eating their own caviar. Honesty I would much rather Dstar be the ham standard as it's much more flexible, really want neither.
 
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#50
I think if Yaesu or Icom can figure out a way to make their pet digital mode have dual time slots and allow two simultaneous conversations like DMR, that mode would take over the hamster world. In my opinion, that is what sets DMR apart from the others, the ability to have the local repeater function as normal while another conversation is going on simultaneously to a distant land or chat room. Do that now on a D-Star or Fusion repeater and everyone has to go with the flow and can't use the local machine in the mean time.

Yaesu and Icom are you listening? Call it Fusion II or whatever and make it backwards compatible with existing radios but add that second time slot. The mfrs would benefit from new sales of repeaters and radios since everybody would need to have it.


Of course not everyone wants DMR, but it's also really far from false that nobody wants DMR. It even seems that if Dstar was replaced with DMR in those D74s you're talking about, most wouldn't even care Dstar was missing, except for the companies that were involved with licensing Dstar.

Really from what I've been reading and typical use at least locally, there are more people who couldn't care less if Dstar disappeared and replaced with DMR because few if any are actually experimenting with Dstar functionality. Seems almost like a novelty than something people could use every day. I'd say there are many more people using DMR on ham every day, at least around here, compared to people using Dstar every day - mostly due to the proliferation of cheap radios. This has an impact on repeater deployment which causes a self reinforcing loop that leaves the big 3 radios to analog.

Interoperability is also a radio to radio issue, nevermind differing entities that chose incompatible standards. Granted if the big 3 budge, it would mean the big three eating their own caviar. Honesty I would much rather Dstar be the ham standard as it's much more flexible, really want neither.
 
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#51
It seems that DMR might actually be starting to fade in popularity now. There have also been hints of new digital modes on the horizon. Of course, if the Chinese and Space X do launch web SDRs into orbit, the new hams will be chatting globally with 5 watt HTs and internet browsers!! ;)
 

W9BU

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#52
Of course not everyone wants DMR, but it's also really far from false that nobody wants DMR.
I don't believe I said that.

Really from what I've been reading and typical use at least locally...
Local use is important. What repeaters are available and who you want to talk to are critical factors in the acceptance or use of any digital voice mode.

...mostly due to the proliferation of cheap radios.
Which brings up an interesting philosophical question. The least expensive Icom D-STAR dual-band handheld is about $340. The least expensive Yaesu System Fusion dual-band handheld is $150, though you can argue that the $300 radio is more versatile. So, let's say that to get a full-featured dual-band handheld using either of those modes is going to cost $300. What if all of the comparable DMR dual-band handhelds were also $300? Would DMR still be more popular? There's probably no quantifiable answer to that question, but it is worth considering.

Interoperability is also a radio to radio issue, nevermind differing entities that chose incompatible standards.
Interoperability keeps being tossed around in this discussion, but it comes down to "interoperability with whom?"

In every situation that I'm aware of where amateur radio operators were tasked with communicating with public safety or other agencies over the radio, they've been provided with a suitable, and legal, radio to use. These amateur radio operators were not asked to communicate with non-amateur radio operators using amateur radio equipment (MARS is the possible exception). If those amateur radio operators were given that tasking, they would be operating under the FCC rules for that particular service, not Part 97.

If you mean interoperability with other amateur radio operators, analog is the lowest common denominator. I will very clearly state my opinion that any amateur radio auxcomm communications plan that relies on digital voice for communication with "boots on the ground" is a poorly-written and somewhat exclusionary plan. Digital voice may be fine for point-to-point communications at higher levels in the command structure, but, in my opinion, the average ARES/RACES/SATERN/Skywarn or whatever volunteer should not be required to have a digital voice radio, of any kind, in order to participate at the lower, tactical levels.
 

buddrousa

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#53
Sounds like needairtime only wants it their way. As a ham IF I WANT TO USE A MODE I WILL BUY THE RADIO if I do not want to use that mode no one is making me buy a radio I do not want. As an IC if I need or want help from a group I would assign them and their group to use the local HAM REPEATER and group to a certain task then the leader of the group report back to the COMMAND POST in person for the next assignment for the group. That way there is no freelancing and the IC maintains the control of the group and scene.
 
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#54
It's always been interoperability with other hams, never mind who chose what standard to use. Why the upper levels chose DMR is a problem left unsolved, but that's a totally separate issue and irrelevant to this post except for the fact that by choosing DMR, they endorse DMR.

Those that need for DMR for this or any other reason including using a DMR repeater network means they can't buy a big 3 radio if there's room for just one radio. Now if you want the quality/features of a big 3 radio, want to interoperate with a DMR radio, you could still do so with analog, but then everyone has wasted money on digital.

If the expensive companies could add DMR as an extra mode versus building one that only has DMR as its digital mode, which seems to be the premise people are assuming here, this would satisfy the original topic of "adding DMR" too. There is no reason for the big 3 to build a radio that has DMR as its only digital mode, but having the option of having more than one digital mode in their high end radios also brings them yet another step above the CCRs.
 
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#55
It's always been interoperability with other hams...
Hams don’t ‘interoperate’ we communicate.

Why the upper levels chose DMR is a problem left unsolved...
What problem?

but that's a totally separate issue and irrelevant to this post except for the fact that by choosing DMR, they endorse DMR.
What’s the issue? DMR is a very useful protocol for ham radio.

Those that need for DMR for this or any other reason including using a DMR repeater network means they can't buy a big 3 radio if there's room for just one radio.
So? My XPR-7550 is FAR superior to anything that is made by the ‘big three’

Now if you want the quality/features of a big 3 radio...
Hahahhahahahahahahaha

...want to interoperate with a DMR radio, you could still do so with analog, but then everyone has wasted money on digital.
Communicate, not interoperate.

Good lord hams are whackerish.


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W9BU

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#56
Why the upper levels chose DMR is a problem left unsolved, but that's a totally separate issue and irrelevant to this post except for the fact that by choosing DMR, they endorse DMR.
Then, that's "their" problem, whoever "they" are. As I said, if they are requiring that boots on the ground use a particular mode, other than analog FM, then they are excluding people who could potentially volunteer or they will have to provide suitable radios.

Those that need for DMR for this or any other reason including using a DMR repeater network means they can't buy a big 3 radio if there's room for just one radio.
Your "need" is not necessarily everyone's need. This "need" is a contrivance, in my opinion. I can talk around the world with an analog FM radio, so why do I "need" DMR, D-STAR, System Fusion, NXDN, or P25?

...you could still do so with analog, but then everyone has wasted money on digital.
I tend to agree. I have yet to see a use case for digital voice on amateur radio that justifies making the expenditure and segregating hams further than we are already segregated. There are approximately 800,000 FCC-licensed amateur radio operators. Of that 800k, a subset uses VHF/UHF repeaters. By adopting digital voice modes, we have taken that subset and further divided it into not only analog FM vs. digital voice, but analog FM vs. five different digital voice protocols. It makes no sense to me.


All that said, the original question for this thread was which of the big 3 Japanese radio manufacturers will add DMR to their amateur radio line-up first. I think it's pretty clear that none of them will. What more is there to discuss?
 
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#57
One of my pet-peeves is people that refuses to learn how to build a codeplug, and instead begs for for a pre-made codeplug.


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I've gotten pretty proficient at writing codeplugs for my DMR radios. I have no problem starting from scratch and building up the codeplug. That being said, I learned an awful lot by looking at one that was already built to see how things are constructed. "Reverse Engineering" as it were.
 
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#58
I've gotten pretty proficient at writing codeplugs for my DMR radios. I have no problem starting from scratch and building up the codeplug. That being said, I learned an awful lot by looking at one that was already built to see how things are constructed. "Reverse Engineering" as it were.
Same here. When I got my CS-700, I had to learn by doing. I did not have any examples to reverse engineer.

I’m in the process of building a 21 zone analogue/digital codeplug for my XPR-7550. Fun times.


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AI7PM

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#59
[QUOTE="kayn1n32008, post: 3142282, member: 182430"...
I’m in the process of building a 21 zone analogue/digital codeplug for my XPR-7550. Fun times.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

That was my first DMR radio, and had to self teach as well. Downloaded R2.10 today for that and the 5550. May give the Kenwood line a try just to see.
 
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#60
[QUOTE="kayn1n32008, post: 3142282, member: 182430"...
I’m in the process of building a 21 zone analogue/digital codeplug for my XPR-7550. Fun times.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That was my first DMR radio, and had to self teach as well. Downloaded R2.10 today for that and the 5550. May give the Kenwood line a try just to see.[/QUOTE]

Don’t upgrade past 2.9. There is zero advantage to doing it. 2.10 adds nothing in fixes or new features. Especially if you are only using it for ham radio.


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